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  • This is for the staff. Staff members please reply here and ignore the other thread that's for regular users...

    Alright we've more or less concluded The DBZ Speeds thread.

    The Relativistic moon bust speed had a possibility of being an outlier as it was contradicted later on by the Snakeway feat.

    Now before anyone says that the Snakeway feat is PIS. I'll just say that there's literally no MHS feats in Part 1 Dragon Ball and the MHS speed stats from Part 1 Dragon Ball comes from a statement...

    We all know feats > statements.

    Now we got this "DB characters use huge amounts of Ki in "bursts" to make themselves much stronger and faster while not staying at that level over long periods of time (because that would waste Ki). That's way their combat speed >>> their travel speed and why their power "jumped" early on while the villains underestimated the" Quoted from LordXcano...

    And there's also the fact that we never really got much feats in the speed department or any department for DBZ...

    At the very least we know for a fact that DBZ makes a huge distinction between Travel speed and Combat speed...

    Now with this we got something... Radtiz dodged Piccolo's beam. Now with this being either a Combat/reactions/short bursts speed feat or a Travel speed feat I'd say this was a Combat/reactions/short bursts feat as it's more likely (given the above explanation) and so as to avoid contradictions.

    Same with the MHS statement... it should likely be a Combat/reactions/short bursts speed feat as there are literally no traveling speed feats with result in MHS and also because it fits very well with this explanation above...

    Now the DBZ speed are most likely gonna be like this.

    For SSJ Goku and Frieza 100%

    Speed: FTL+ Combat Speed, reactions and short bursts speed. This is with the timeframe of 17.84 seconds.

    Or Speed: MFTL Combat Speed, reactions and short bursts speed. This is with the timeframe of 4 seconds from the anime.

    Now we come to the main point of this thread. Decide upon the timeframe. Since there seems to be no other way I'll just ask ya guys to vote.

    Now for traveling speed it would likely still be FTL by the end of the Frieza saga but I'll need to gather some information on that. Also just a heads up there may be downgrades of sort on some speed stats...

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    • Hmm...well, first of all, I remember you saying that Lord Kavpeny and DontTalk took serious issue with one of the timeframes. I don't want to force you into speaking for them, but I just want to ask which one it was, as I'm rather conflicted right now and would like to know what two of the site's most trusted users think.

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    • They didn't really like either timeframes as they had their own flaws. But if I had to choose which one they wouldn't want to use it'd be the Cinematic timeframe aka the 3 seconds one... they may have changed their opinions though...

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    • Hmm...I see. I suppose that is a bit of an issue. That said, regardless of what timeframe we settle on, I'm on board for Sub-rel+ to Relativistic Saiyan Saga, though the thing I am still a bit shaky on is the multiplication of Goku's speed by exactly 10 by the Ginyu Force fight simply due to a sentence in an excerpt from the back of a volume. I don't know why, but I'm not entirely comfortable with it, which is probably due in part to Toriyama's occasional issues with consistency. Like, yes the training obviously made Goku far stronger and faster, but I'm very hesitant to pin the exact number "10" to it and base everything from then on off of that, especially for a series like Dragon Ball, where 99% of fights are determined solely by speed and power, and having even a slight advantage over your opponent in both of those pretty much allows you to stomp them.

      I don't know. I might not be making sense (due to not sleeping very well), but I hope I'm getting my point across.

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    • Oh, and personally, there's always things like this (9:35 - 9:51) that make me really hesitant to accept the 4 second timeframe, so yeah, I'm currently probably going with 17, though that's always up to change if evidence for more accurate timeframes comes up.

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    • Like i said in the other thread...

      Well, if the calculation group said that is fine, then i'm also agree. I trust them like a blind man trusts his dog. 17.84 seconds doesn't seem bad at all. IMHO

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    • @Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot: Alright then thanks for your input...

      @KamiYasha: I see thanks for your input on this...

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    • Well, in the last thread I said:

      "This is a rather controversial issue. On the one hand, it would be far more convenient to use cinematic time when no apparent time distortion is going on, and we have no other more reliable means to gauge the time spent. On the other, it is not certain that we could accurately gauge whether it is distorted or not.

      Maybe we could use it on a case-by-case basis?"

      Of course, it is probably not that simple. For some reason lots of people want absolute consistency, so that we have to always accept cinematic time if we use it for one instance, have to redo various old calculations, and remember this to accept various new ones.

      I still have a very hard time making up my mind about this, but if Lord Kavpeny and DontTalk still think that it is unreliable, then I suppose that I am going with their take on this.

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    • I see well I guess we'll have to wait for their current opinions then. Anyhow thanks for the input...

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    • Sorry about having a hard time to decide. The input has been very conflicted, and I think that both sides have had good points.

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    • No problem... DBZ has always been like this...

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    • Personally I am not all that strict about cinematic time (I judge it on an case to case basis, which as antvasima said is difficult, usually I only see it relevant if the animation in question has shown to abuse it and if things happen off screen or with a lot of cuts). lluminati478 has higher standards than me in that matter, I believe.

      Now to the case in question:

      The calc for the manga timeframe was questionable, because it proclaimed that one could still see rocks falling, but in the panels that were referred to non can be seen. There was also a second problem that the link to the original scaling for the height that the pieces flew to was missing.


      Still I would go with the manga timeframe of 17.84 seconds here. The fact that no rocks could be seen in the manga panel would suggest that the rocks were already at the ground at that point, so that much would be the suggested minimum timeframe, i believe.

      For the issue of scaling I would give the OBD the pass for once, as it usually does that well, but if someone wants to doubt it that is of course a legitimate objection.

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    • Based on DontTalk's reasoning, i'd have to go with the 17.84 seconds here as well.

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    • Im still on the side of using the 17 seconds for the feat in question

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    • I'd go for either the 4 or 17 seconds really. Whichever one is chosen, I am fine with it.

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    • If it is still an issue, I would however go with the distance between our Earth and Moon, since Toriyama supposedly said so.

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    • Antvasima wrote:
      If it is still an issue, I would however go with the distance between our Earth and Moon, since Toriyama supposedly said so.

      Angsizing moon distance is something that in my experience often gives wrong (to short) values, so I absolutely agree with that.

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    • Yeah, the moon distance shouldn't be an issue here since toriyama already confirmed the distance of dragonball a moon. The problem is the speed of the blast itself.

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    • Are we still arguing about this? The other thread was closed by Antvasima, but are we going to keep this one open, considering the two threads were supposed to be co-threads.

      Anyway, I still side with the 4-second time frame considering Kai is our source now, and the manga timeframe was improvised to begin with on top of Living Tribunal's point that it may be unreliable. And cinematic time is moot since we still have no clear standards regarding what constitutes an abuse of it.

      This leaves one question, that being whether or not it's an outlier. It moved much faster than any other blast in the Saiyan Saga or Frieza Saga (that anyone reacted to; Frieza's Supernova can't be scaled to anyone since no one reacted to it). However, Aimenaltair brought up Super Vegeta's Final Flash from the Android Saga, which Perfect Cell was seemingly able to react to at the last second. Said blast went far into space and detonated likely several light years away. Someone ought to try and calculate the speed of that blast.

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    • @Unclechairman

      You know, that's actually something I hadn't thought of. The outlier thing, that is. Since this is our basis for...well, literally everything in these upgrades, and the fact that the blast was far, far faster than any other in the both the Saiyan Saga and Frieza Saga, it being an outlier would render all of this completely unreliable.

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    • That's why I said I was a bit hesitant to bring it up in the other thread. It would make all of these discussions completely pointless and a waste of our time.

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    • Just asking, but "other blasts" are we talking about here that traveled slower? The only thing that comes to mind is cells kamemameha that fired at gohan, but other than that, how do we know whether or not the later blasts are slower or not?

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    • Sheoth wrote:
      Just asking, but "other blasts" are we talking about here that traveled slower? The only thing that comes to mind is cells kamemameha that fired at gohan, but other than that, how do we know that if the later blasts are slower or not?

      Well for one, Piccolo's SBC, which took twice as long to hit a distant mountain range than his regular ki blast took to hit the moon.

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    • Wouldn't that simply be an instance of cinematic time making it look slower? Because I don't think it would be effect animating on Toeis part to make the beam hit the mountain the second it leaves piccolos had, the same way it would look stupid if he stood pointing at the moon for 17 seconds.

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    • As Uncle said, we pretty much have no idea what's cinematic time and what isn't, but as it stands, Piccolo's casual blast speed >>> every other attack in the saga (and the following saga).

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    • Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot
      Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot removed this reply because:
      Non-staff member.
      03:32, December 13, 2015
      This reply has been removed
    • @TLT1

      We're not going by the random assumption that cinematic time is only used in battles, because it very clearly isn't.

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    • But if we don't know what's cinematic time and what isn't (and I guess we really don't), how could we tell wether or not it's faster than the others?

      I guess because the other blasts are shown slower overall? But again, it could be that they are slower from CT than they should be rather than vice verse as unclechairman said.

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    • Sheoth wrote:
      But if we don't know what's cinematic time and what isn't (and I guess we really don't), how could we tell wether or not it's faster than the others?

      I guess because the other blasts are shown slower overall? But again, it could be that they are slower from CT than they should be rather than vice verse as unclechairman said.

      Because, as I said, if we don't know what is cinematic time and what isn't, and we assume them all to be in a similar period of time, this is still the fastest attack in the saga, unless you make random assumptions about how fast other attacks are. Therein lies the problem, unfortunately.

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    • But this moon blast speed is the one instance that we are basing the rest off of. Of course we don't know the exact speed of the blasts later on, we just have to assume that they are faster, much like how we don't know exactly how much faster the characters are later on, we only know that they are "faster" and resort to multipliers to determine their new minimum speed.

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    • The moon blast speed is less what we are basing the speed of the blasts off of and more what we are basing the speeds of the characters themselves off of, as unlike  the characters, we can see the blasts move certain distances in certain amounts of time. However, the problem is, as I have stated, this casual attack dwarfs the speed of later, far more deadly attacks by a pretty substantial amount, thus leading us to either:

      A) Form guesses off of limited information about exactly how cinematic time affected each scene in question.

      or

      B) Consider this attack's speed an outlier, which as Uncle said, would unfortunately make most of this discussion moot.

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    • Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot wrote:
      The moon blast speed is less what we are basing the speed of the blasts off of and more what we are basing the speeds of the characters themselves off of, as unlike  the characters, we can see the blasts move certain distances in certain amounts of time. However, the problem is, as I have stated, this casual attack dwarfs the speed of later, far more deadly attacks by a pretty substantial amount, thus leading us to either:

      A) Form guesses off of limited information about exactly how cinematic time affected each scene in question.

      or

      B) Consider this attack's speed an outlier, which as Uncle said, would unfortunately make most of this discussion moot.

      I think of it like this: You are watching an action movie and a character shoots bullets at a target that look like they are fired in real time. A few scenes later and you see a character dodge bullets, yet they look slow motion in order to display this characters speed and ability to dodge. Are the bullets from that gun slower than the last gun? Nah, they are just trying to show something superhuman from the perspective of that character. Their is no need to slow down the speed of the gun when shooting at something stationary and insignificant like a target, but they will show things slowed down when something needs to be properly displayed.

      I think the blast and character speeds are a lot like this. They showed the moon get blown up nearly instantly from an outside viewing perspective, but when firing at people, there are long dramatic pauses and they display the characters reactions as if it were from their perspective at these moments. Sorry if that was a bad example, this is just one possibility that could explain the inconcistency in timing.

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    • Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot wrote:
      The moon blast speed is less what we are basing the speed of the blasts off of and more what we are basing the speeds of the characters themselves off of, as unlike  the characters, we can see the blasts move certain distances in certain amounts of time. However, the problem is, as I have stated, this casual attack dwarfs the speed of later, far more deadly attacks by a pretty substantial amount, thus leading us to either:

      A) Form guesses off of limited information about exactly how cinematic time affected each scene in question.

      or

      B) Consider this attack's speed an outlier, which as Uncle said, would unfortunately make most of this discussion moot.

      I did bring up that Vegeta's Final Flash in the Android Saga travelled deep into space in a very short time period (seconds, in fact) and Cell was seemingly able to react to it somewhat, which may help in arguing that this feat is not an outlier. Someone just has to calculate it

      As I've thought about this, though, we've come across a bigger problem; nobody reacted to Piccolo's moon-busting blast, and thus it's only possible to scale it by assuming his blasts in the rest of the saga were of a comparable speed, which, as they were not explicitly shown as being as fast as said moon-busting blast, can only be argued as such with assumptions based on cinematic timing.

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    • Unclechairman wrote:

      I did bring up that Vegeta's Final Flash in the Android Saga travelled deep into space in a very short time period (seconds, in fact) and Cell was seemingly able to react to it somewhat, which may help in arguing that this feat is not an outlier. Someone just has to calculate it

      As I've thought about this, though, we've come across a bigger problem; nobody reacted to Piccolo's moon-busting blast, and thus it's only possible to scale it by assuming his blasts in the rest of the saga were of a comparable speed, which, as they were not explicitly shown as being as fast as said moon-busting blast, can only be argued as such with assumptions based on cinematic timing.

      I would definitely like to see that calced.

      Hm...that is a bit of an issue.

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    • So we are still undecided then. This is a problem. In a worst case scenario, we might have to stick "Unknown" on the speeds of a lot of Dragon Ball characters, which would be unfortunate.

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    • Antvasima wrote:
      So we are still undecided then. This is a problem. In a worst case scenario, we might have to stick "Unknown" on the speeds of a lot of Dragon Ball characters, which would be unfortunate.

      Oh no....

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    • SchutzenDunkelZiel1217
      SchutzenDunkelZiel1217 removed this reply because:
      Non-Staff member...
      14:50, December 13, 2015
      This reply has been removed
    • I think:

      The issue about the inconsistency of speed of Ki blasts is not an issue. Again, I don't know the mechanics, so this is pure conjecture, but it is quite clear that as the speed of a DBZ character increases, their speed at projecting a Ki blast increases as well. 

      Otherwise, it would be highly illogical to assume that the speed of all Ki blasts, from the beginning of Dragon Ball to the current ones in Dragon Ball Super, have the same measure of speed. It would create a massive speed inconsistency within the series.


      Regarding scaling using cinematic time-frames...the ideal solution is, as DontTalk suggested, to resolve on a case-by-case basis. However, that is not a viable solution for a site attempting to index statistics. There must be a degree of standardization in all matters, including the acceptance of cinematic time-frame for calcs. I believe that while some decisions need to be made subjectively, a decision as fundamental as this one should be fixed and universal, and that a stand needs to be taken.

      And I am taking a stand, which is not using cinematic time-frame.

      I would like to reiterate by saying that Anime often misuse cinematic time-frame. Dragon Ball Z (and yes, even Kai, though considerably less so) is notorious for the misuse of cinematic time-frame. I believe that, in accordance with the current standard, cinematic time-frames should be disregarded, and alternative time-measuring techniques should be used instead.

      This is because:

      • With respect to this particular instance, cinematic time-frame screws up all speed scaling in the franchise. Hell, it disrupts the very base ideology of DBZ combat speeds being > travel speeds.
      • All other instances of DBZ Ki basts must use the same principle as well, which would again lead to massive speed inconsistencies. For example, should we scale the speed of Master Roshi's Kamehameha (to the moon, back in Dragon Ball), with respect to this time-frame? Or even earlier, postulate the distance of the Ox King's mountain based on the cinematic time-frame (which would assuredly be far more than the actual distance)?
      • Almost all FTL feats in fiction would be rendered invalid by Cinematic time-frames. Should Dragon Ball Super's God Tier's speeds be calced using cinematic time-frames as well? Their speed end result would probably be lower than MHS, let alone MFTL.
      • Accepting cinematic time-frames in certain instances, while not accepting them in general, apart from generating innumerable inconsistencies, would also be, dare I say, partial to some franchises, albeit unintentionally.


      Will all that said, I agree with SchutzenDunkelZiel1217's calcs, and I accept the 17 second time-frame calc, and the speed scaling from it.

      Agreements/disagreements?

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    • I'm still in agreement with the 17 seconds here.

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    • Sheoth
      Sheoth removed this reply because:
      Give me a second...
      14:54, December 17, 2015
      This reply has been removed
    • Well, I don't like Cinematic timing for reasons already heard, and I figured the 17 seconds could also act like some sort of low ball for the feat aswell, so I'll go with the 17 seconds aswell.

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    • LordAizenSama
      LordAizenSama removed this reply because:
      Staff Only.
      15:55, December 20, 2015
      This reply has been removed
    • 17 seconds

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    • I am in agreement of the 17 second timeframe as well.

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    • "With respect to this particular instance, cinematic time-frame screws up all speed scaling in the franchise. Hell, it disrupts the very base ideology of DBZ combat speeds being > travel speeds."

      The basis for combat speed being greater than travel speed in Dragon Ball (at least pre-BOG Saga in Super) actually originates, to my knowledge, from the fact that they can keep up with and dodge blasts that far exceed the characters' travel speed. I'm not quite sure how cinematic time relates to this other than the apparent issue at hand of "are blast speeds in Dragon Ball at least partly caused by cinematic time?".


      "All other instances of DBZ Ki basts must use the same principle as well, which would again lead to massive speed inconsistencies. For example, should we scale the speed of Master Roshi's Kamehameha (to the moon, back in Dragon Ball), with respect to this time-frame? Or even earlier, postulate the distance of the Ox King's mountain based on the cinematic time-frame (which would assuredly be far more than the actual distance)?"

      Nobody reacted to either of those blasts, though, so the case of scaling them to anyone is a tenous case at best. Speaking of which, we have a bigger issue on our hands that I brought up; nobody reacted to Piccolo's moon-buster, so how can we scale it to anyone without assuming that all his blasts must be the same speed, which from what we see on-screen, they don't, and assuming they do requires bringing cinematic time into the issue, which, as I've stated repeatedly, is a factor that cannot be accurately measured and quantified?



      "Almost all FTL feats in fiction would be rendered invalid by Cinematic time-frames. Should Dragon Ball Super's God Tier's speeds be calced using cinematic time-frames as well? Their speed end result would probably be lower than MHS, let alone MFTL."

      The MFTL feats in question are of space travel, so I'm fairly certain that calcing it in the anime would still come out MFTL. And in fact, contrary to what you seem to be saying, which is that face-value time frames are almost universally less than lightspeed, face-value timeframes are what allow FTL feats to happen in the first place, because bringing cinematic time and it's notions of realistic time frames vs non-realistic time frames (the only standard we seem to be going by when judging whether or not cinematic time is a factor in a feat) into the argument would by default render all Lightspeed or faster feats invalid, because FTL as a concept is unrealistic since nothing in real life can go faster than light as to do so would require infinite energy or greater, which is literally impossible.

      Lastly, there may have been flaws with the original calc that got 17.84 seconds. As TheLiving_Tribunal1 pointed out, the rocks that were used to get a timeframe may have been appeared because of Gohan's rampage. Did the timeframe rely on those rocks not appearing from Gohan's rampage? If so, the speed calc may be entirely invalid.

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    • I agree with Lord Kavpeny.

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    • Well, about the general decision towards cinematic time. I can say that I am not very happy with it. I can absolutely understand the position and given that I had discussions several times about how many scientific flaws a calc is allowed to have I certainly know the problem of case by case basis, but I am not happy.

      Still maybe making hard rules is necessary for having such a site, so in the end I would support it.

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    • @Unclechairman: Given that you seem to disagree with Lord Kavpenys suggestion, maybe you wish to make a thread on the staff board explaining which alternative approach you would suggest for dealing with cinematic times in general (as in not in relation to dragonball or any other series specifically) so that we can discuss, which is the best option properly?

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    • I don't think I need to create a new thread, because my alternative is very simple; use them. Yes, even when a timeframe can be gotten from the manga. Getting timeframes from mangas (when they are not stated, of course) involves finding otherwise arbitrary details that relate to the scene in question somehow, then making low-end assumptions. Getting timeframes from anime needs no such thing; a precise timeframe can be gotten by anyone who can count without the need for arbitrary details and low-end assumptions.

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    • @Unclechairman: It seems you have missed the point I was trying to make. Very well, some examples using hypothetical speed figures (since I don't have the energy to determine actual numbers):

      • Example one:
        • Time taken by base Goku at beginning of Z to throw a punch (using cinematic time-frames): 0.5 seconds (assumption)
        • Time taken by Buu saga SS 3 Goku to throw a punch (using cinematic time-frames): 0.5 seconds (assumption)
      • Example two:
        • Time taken by Goku to move a certain distance during the fight with Piccolo in 23rd Budokai Tenchi: 1 second (assumption)
        • Time taken by Android Saga SS Goku to move the same distance during the fight with Android 19 against Android 19: 1 second (assumption)
      • Example three:
        • Time taken by Dragon Ball Goku's Kamehameha to cover a certain distance: 2 seconds (assumption)
        • Time taken by Frieza Saga Goku's Kamehameha to cover same distance: 2 seconds (assumption)

      Like I said, I am assuming the listed time-frame. Now, you can call bullshit on that and continue to debate with respect to those examples, or realize the fact that regardless of the accuracy of the assumptions in these particular examples, similar figures can be obtained throughout the series.

      Now, does this mean that combat speed of BoZ base Goku and Buu saga SS 3 Goku are similar, or even in the same tier? Or any of the other examples? Because if we're utilizing cinematic time-frames, that's exactly what it should imply.

      Not only that, but if two characters from different Verses can cover the same distance in an equal amount of cinematic time, they would be listed as having equivalent speeds. Can you comprehend the chaos that would cause? Hell, DBZ and Naruto of all might have to be listed with equal speeds.

      I can provide countless other such inconsistencies (and calc proper time-frames as well), all of which would be equally illogical, which is is the reason I chose to discard cinematic time entirely in the first place.

      The solution is, again, to do handle such matters in a subjective manner, but we don't have the man-power for it, and like I stated before, it might lead to indirect partiality towards some franchises, which is unacceptable.

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    • @DontTalk: I understand that you're not entirely in agreement with my opinion, but at the very least, I'm sure you agree with the basis of my reasoning. If cinematic time-frames are indeed to be accepted, then taking the same action (short range movement, throwing a punch, etc.) should take a fraction of the cinematic time of the same action from previous arcs, which doesn't happen.

      To do the same action (aka, covering the same distance), within similar time-frames, will yield similar speeds. And yet, evidence from the manga suggests a massive speed difference. Hence utilizing cinematic time would either result in inconsistencies, or turn the basic physics principles of speed invalid.

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    • Yes I understand, the only thing I wanted to say is that it is sad that some legitimate feats will also go overboard with it, but there isn't much one can do about that.

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    • A FANDOM user
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