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  • Unclechairman
    Unclechairman closed this thread because:
    Thread concluded.
    03:28, December 7, 2015

    Well since I can be properly active again I figured I'd get this out of the way first.

    I'm sure most of you are aware of my short calc which puts DBZ Characters at FTL since the Frieza saga. It's been quite some time since this was posted and there wasn't much disagreement regarding it besides the uncertainty regarding the Timeframe of 17.84 seconds.

    The calc has a broken link where the definite explanation for getting the timeframe would be. I've already asked DontTalk if there was another way to get a proper timeframe or at least confirm the timeframe of 17.84 seconds here.

    Before making a decision regarding this I would like to point out two things.

    1) The accepted calc for Piccolo's Beam which is this uses the same timeframe of 17.84 seconds.

    2) The same accepted calc uses 9,318.7 kilometers as the distance between the DBZ's Earth and Moon they got this via angsizing. However as I've already said in my calc Akira Toriyama technically confirmed that the distance between DBZ's Earth and Moon is the same as the distance between our earth and moon which should make the distance of 9,318.7 kilometers for DBZ's Earth and Moon as being inaccurate or at least that's my opinion.

    Now it's time to make a decision is my calc acceptable or not.

    Also I do have an alternative timeframe which we can use, it's was heavily suggested by The Living Tribunal1 so if we use that instead credit goes to him as well I guess. We can use the timeframe of 4 or so seconds which is the time required for Piccolo's beam to reach the moon in DBZ Kai.

    I'm strongly opposed to using Cinematic time but there aren't any other choices so I'm gonna suggest it...

    Discuss and let's conclude this thing...

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    • Well, Cinematic time has turned into a major issue as of late with a Naruto calculation, and given that it seems so controversial, and DontTalk and yourself also disapprove of it, I personally think that it seems uncertain to use. However, I think that the first option should probably be fine.

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    • im against cinematic timing, but i am fine with the upgrades using the 17 second as the timeframe, although i'm not sure what to think about the distance to the moon.. I would prefer to go with our earth and moons distance.

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    • I will ask the rest of the staff to weigh in with their opinions regarding this.

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    • Well at least I'm not the only person who opposes using Cinematic time... and thanks for the quick replies.

      @Antvasima: I would like to know what your opinion is regarding the distance between DBZ's Earth and Moon as in which do you think should be accepted the value of 9,318.7 kilometers or the value of 384,400 kilometers which is the distance between our earth and moon....

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    • eh arent we using the manga pages to calc things? and not kai episodes?

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    • If Toriyama says that it is the same distance, then the same as for our Moon.

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    • So let me get this straight.

      Using the initial distance between DBZ earth and DBZ's moon, the calc resulted in MHS+.

      Using the distance between our earth and our moon, the calc is sub-rel, right?

      I just want to clear this up before anything else.

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    • @Antvasima: Thanks for providing your opinion...

      @Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot: Yep...

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    • Alright. Well, it's much more likely to be the same distance as our moon. What was the exact speed value, again?

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    • For the naruto forums calc Mach 1,535.0654.

      For my calc around Mach 63373.78...

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    • So around the middle of Sub-rel+?

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    • Man that is one upgrade but very hard to pinpoint huh..

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    • @Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot: Yes. Although do remember that Raditz dodged Piccolo's beam from like ten feet away which would make him Sub-Rel+ as well. And applying the "Goku got 10X faster and stronger statement" alongside the Kaioken multipliers DBZ speeds can become FTL since Frieza saga.

      It kinda unbelievable even to me so please make a proper and calm decision as always... .

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    • SchutzenDunkelZiel1217 wrote:
      @Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot: Yes. Although do remember that Raditz dodged Piccolo's beam from like ten feet away which would make him Sub-Rel+ as well. And applying the "Goku got 10X faster and stronger statement" alongside the Kaioken multipliers DBZ speeds can become FTL since Frieza saga.

      It kinda unbelievable even to me so please make a proper and calm decision as always... .

      Yikes well at least the speed boost will be less ridicuolous as DBS jumps straight to MFTL from Rel+ Buu saga

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    • @Schutzen

      Well, I guess the same question I had as last time, was do we have confirmation that SSJ boosts speed the same as it boosts power? Because I remember there being a thing about Kaioken multiplying both strength and speed, but I thought Super Saiyan just boosted speed. I just wanna try and get these upgrades as accurate as possible.

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    • I didn't use the SSJ multipliers for anything especially speed because quite frankly I dislike using them since they have nothing that prove that the multipliers multiply all stats by 50, 2 or 4 times...

      The only thing slightly similar I used in my calc would be my assumption that 100% Frieza would be 2X faster than 50% Frieza...

      As such I'm at a loss of what to do regarding the speeds after Frieza saga but I don't support using the SSJ multipliers for them. And to answer your question no there is no confirmation that SSJ multipliers boosts speed the same as it boosts power...

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    • Hm, then I'm going to continue with my previous suggestion of everyone beyond a certain point should likely just be judged based on that. How many times FTL did Frieza end up being, again?

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    • 28X FTL...

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    • Alright. Could you link me back to the original calc, again?

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    • By original calc if ya mean my calc then here if ya mean the Naruto Forums original calc then here...

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    • why does cinematic time always comes up? cinematic time isn't usable, even if there is no way to find a time frame otherwise, it misrepresanting and inaccurate.

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    • SchutzenDunkelZiel1217 wrote:
      By original calc if ya mean my calc then here if ya mean the Naruto Forums original calc then here...

      Thank's, Tom. By the way, the whole tenfold thing from the back of DBZ volume 8. Are those little summaries written by Toriyama or just a member of the SJ staff?

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    • @Illuminati478: Well without it both calcs are technically uncertain.

      But which distance do ya think is more reasonable for the distance between DBZ's Earth and Moon the value of 9,318.7 kilometers or the value of 384,400 kilometers...

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    • @Azathoth: Akira I would assume but I'll look it up...

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    • SchutzenDunkelZiel1217 wrote:
      @Azathoth: Akira I would assume but I'll look it up...

      Thanks, man. That'd be appreciated.

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    • I'd go with the calculated distance rather then the informed, its toriyama's fault he drew the moon this way and that is its distance whether he likes it or not....

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    • @Azathoth: No problem...

      @Illuminati478: I see thanks for your input...

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    • Illuminati478 wrote:
      why does cinematic time always comes up? cinematic time isn't usable, even if there is no way to find a time frame otherwise, it misrepresanting and inaccurate.

      This. Cinematic time is wrong by default. Its always inaccurate and never corresponds to real time. Not only that there is no given standard in cinematic time. For manga calc we can assume time on our own and set our own standard. Each and every scene in all animated media have their own standard

      Is there no other way for the calc?

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    • SchutzenDunkelZiel1217 wrote:
      I didn't use the SSJ multipliers for anything especially speed because quite frankly I dislike using them since they have nothing that prove that the multipliers multiply all stats by 50, 2 or 4 times...

      The only thing slightly similar I used in my calc would be my assumption that 100% Frieza would be 2X faster than 50% Frieza...

      As such I'm at a loss of what to do regarding the speeds after Frieza saga but I don't support using the SSJ multipliers for them. And to answer your question no there is no confirmation that SSJ multipliers boosts speed the same as it boosts power...

      Considering Vegeta's statement that a higher PL/Ki = more speed, and that the Kaio-Ken increases speed, strength, and senses just by increasing your Ki pool, wouldn't the better question be "Is there any evidence against a SSJ multiplier also boosting speed"?

      I know there's that on SSJ2 form that makes you stronger but slower but that adds in extra muscle mass. For some reason more muscle always = less speed in DBZ.

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    • LordXcano wrote:
      SchutzenDunkelZiel1217 wrote:
      I didn't use the SSJ multipliers for anything especially speed because quite frankly I dislike using them since they have nothing that prove that the multipliers multiply all stats by 50, 2 or 4 times...The only thing slightly similar I used in my calc would be my assumption that 100% Frieza would be 2X faster than 50% Frieza...

      As such I'm at a loss of what to do regarding the speeds after Frieza saga but I don't support using the SSJ multipliers for them. And to answer your question no there is no confirmation that SSJ multipliers boosts speed the same as it boosts power...

      Considering Vegeta's statement that a higher PL/Ki = more speed, and that the Kaio-Ken increases speed, strength, and senses just by increasing your Ki pool, wouldn't the better question be "Is there any evidence against a SSJ multiplier also boosting speed"?

      I know there's that on SSJ2 form that makes you stronger but slower but that adds in extra muscle mass. For some reason more muscle always = less speed in DBZ.

      Well not SSJ2 but ultra grade 2 and 3 does make you slower

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    • LordXcano wrote:

      Considering Vegeta's statement that a higher PL/Ki = more speed, and that the Kaio-Ken increases speed, strength, and senses just by increasing your Ki pool, wouldn't the better question be "Is there any evidence against a SSJ multiplier also boosting speed"?

      I know there's that on SSJ2 form that makes you stronger but slower but that adds in extra muscle mass. For some reason more muscle always = less speed in DBZ.

      No evidence that it doesn't boost speed, but also no evidence that it multiplies speed equal to its power multiplier. Obviously, Kaioken is a different case, but we don't want to assume that any character who is 50x stronger is also 50x faster.

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    • Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot wrote:
      LordXcano wrote:

      Considering Vegeta's statement that a higher PL/Ki = more speed, and that the Kaio-Ken increases speed, strength, and senses just by increasing your Ki pool, wouldn't the better question be "Is there any evidence against a SSJ multiplier also boosting speed"?

      I know there's that on SSJ2 form that makes you stronger but slower but that adds in extra muscle mass. For some reason more muscle always = less speed in DBZ.

      No evidence that it doesn't boost speed, but also no evidence that it multiplies speed equal to its power multiplier. Obviously, Kaioken is a different case, but we don't want to assume that any character who is 50x stronger is also 50x faster.

      Well all Kaioken does is increase the amount of Ki you have by the stated multiplier, which boosts the sats respectively. Working from that we could conclude that the SSJ multiplier would do the same thing, as Ki would boost all stats.

      [Non-Canon by now, I know but] This is why Goku was able to be killed with a simple laser rifle in RoF. His Ki was lowered, and so his speed and durability were lowered as well, preventing him from dodging or blocking the blast.

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    • LordXcano wrote:

      Well all Kaioken does is increase the amount of Ki you have by the stated multiplier, which boosts the sats respectively. Working from that we could conclude that the SSJ multiplier would do the same thing, as Ki would boost all stats.

      [Non-Canon by now, I know but] This is why Goku was able to be killed with a simple laser rifle in RoF. His Ki was lowered, and so his speed and durability were lowered as well, preventing him from dodging or blocking the blast.

      We use Kaioken's speed multiplier because it's directly stated to multiply ALL physical attributes. SSJ is not.

      Goku died in RoF because his ki was lowered yes, but dodging had nothing to do with it. His ki lowered his defense, so he couldn't tank the laser. There's nothing to suggest he couldn't have just dodged a similar attack had he seen it coming (because I sincerely doubt Goku is slower than light, at that point).

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    • Sigh... this again. Look LordXcano until Akira Toriyama says that the SSJ multipliers increase all the stats of the character by the multiplier it ain't gonna be accepted...

      I don't care if I sound like a prick right now as I've had to deal with the whole SSJ multiplier discussion at least half a dozen times by now and I'm in no mood to discuss it again.

      So drop the topic.

      If ya still want to discuss the topic start a new thread and get all the admins and mods besides me to agree. This thread is meant to discuss with calc is gonna be accepted and not to discuss about the SSJ multipliers so don't derail it...

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    • Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot wrote:

      We use Kaioken's speed multiplier because it's directly stated to multiply ALL physical attributes. SSJ is not.

      Goku died in RoF because his ki was lowered yes, but dodging had nothing to do with it. His ki lowered his defense, so he couldn't tank the laser. There's nothing to suggest he couldn't have just dodged a similar attack had he seen it coming (because I sincerely doubt Goku is slower than light, at that point).

      We do see a significant increase in speed whenever someone uses a new SSJ form, however. And the literal description of Kaioken is that it "multiplies the user's ki". 

      I think you misunderstood. I was arguing that Ki affects more than just one stat at a time. We've already concluded more Ki = more strength, this means that more Ki also equals more durability. I'd fully say that Goku with 0 Ki would be much much slower than light, essentially a normal human with some natural Saiyan durability.

      There's still the statement from Vegeta about a higher PL meaning higher speed, and since scouters measure Ki output that'd mean Ki = speed.

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    • LordXcano wrote:

      We do see a significant increase in speed whenever someone uses a new SSJ form, however. And the literal description of Kaioken is that it "multiplies the user's ki". 

      I think you misunderstood. I was arguing that Ki affects more than just one stat at a time. We've already concluded more Ki = more strength, this means that more Ki also equals more durability. I'd fully say that Goku with 0 Ki would be much much slower than light, essentially a normal human with some natural Saiyan durability.

      There's still the statement from Vegeta about a higher PL meaning higher speed, and since scouters measure Ki output that'd mean Ki = speed.

      As I've already said. In DBZ, more power = more speed.

      50x more power =/= 50x more speed.

      That's the problem.

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    • Take this else where guys...

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    • SchutzenDunkelZiel1217 wrote:
      Take this else where guys...

      Right, sorry Tom. Did you find anything about the summary, yet?

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    • So far nothing much. I'm gonna have to looking into it a little deeper. Although for now I need to go. I'm going for tennis practice. I'll be back in 2 to 3 hours.

      Could ya maintain this thread for me while you're on...

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    • Sure, though I don't know how much longer I'll be on (been getting pulled away by family members, throughout the day), but yeah. I'll keep an eye on it.

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    • Alright thanks...

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    • While the timeframe could be not an 100% true, it would be still more accurate and would have more sense in the context (the scene suggest that the KI Blast had reach the Moon in a few moments), at least in my opinion.

      Another fact to take intro account is that cinematic time in Dragon Ball is mostly used to slow down the action, than actually speed up instead (like when the characters fight at super speed), so the KI Blast could be even more faster.


      But if we use the Manga, the KI Blast attack had instantly reach and destroy the Moon, suggest that any KI Attacks travel at Lightspeed.

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    • Stefano4444 wrote:

      But if we use the Manga, the KI Blast attack had instantly reach and destroy the Moon, suggest that any KI Attacks travel at Lightspeed.

      No. We cannot use this logic. If we do, literally every attack in a manga or comic with an unspecified speed could travel at lightspeed.

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    • Well whatever decision you guys come to, remember this will be scaled to the characters' movement speed as well since during the Saiyan Saga many characters were outrunning them in short bursts.

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    • TheMightyRegulator
      TheMightyRegulator removed this reply because:
      Incompatible browser leads to unintentional spam.
      12:19, December 5, 2015
      This reply has been removed
    • I'm taking Toriyama's statement on this.

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    • ImagoDesattrolante wrote:
      I'm taking Toriyama's statement on this.

      So distance the same as in real life?

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    • Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot wrote:

      No. We cannot use this logic. If we do, literally every attack in a manga or comic with an unspecified speed could travel at lightspeed.

      How this example could put any attacks, with unspecified speed, at lightspeed?

      Because this feat can be measurable, we are capable to estimate the possible speed of the KI Attack.

      - We know (more or less) the distance between Moon and Earth.

      - We know (more or less) how fast is the speed of light.

      And we have already estimated that the light is able to reach the Moon in one second (to be precise, is around 1,3 seconds).

      So this example, cannot be compare with other attacks that have neither feats or statements.

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    • Stefano4444 wrote:

      How this example could put any attacks (with unspecified speed) at LS?

      This feat can be measured, we are capable to estimate the possible speed of the attack.

      - We know (more or less) the distance between Moon and Earth.

      - We know (more or less) how fast is the speed of light.

      And we have already estimated that the light is able to reach the Moon in one second (to be precise, is around 1,3 seconds).

      Because this is a completely random guess. We cannot say "We know the time it takes light to reach the moon. The beam hit the moon in an unspecified amount of time between panels. Therefore, it is lightspeed."

      The measurements that have been given provide far more accuracy.

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    • Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot wrote:
      ImagoDesattrolante wrote:
      I'm taking Toriyama's statement on this.
      So distance the same as in real life?

      Yes.

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    • ImagoDesattrolante wrote:

      Yes.

      Gotcha. Thanks for the input, Des.

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    • Anyone mind getting me up to speed (Hehe) on this thread?

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    • Well, if the calculation group said that is fine, then i'm also agree. I trust them like a blind man trusts his dog.

      Anyway, the main issue is the timeframe, right? 17.84 seconds doesn't seem bad at all. IMHO

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    • The Everlasting wrote:
      Anyone mind getting me up to speed (Hehe) on this thread?

      Saiyan Saga characters such as Raditz, Piccolo, pre-Kaioken Goku, and Nappa are almost certainly Sub-rel+.

      Vegeta and Kaioken Goku are almost certainly Relativistic.

      Currently, Tom is trying to find the author of the quote used on the back of DBZ volume 8, as it is an important part of the initial calculation, so I noted it would likely be best to find out if the summary was written by Toriyama or a random SJ employee, which will drastically affect its validity.

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    • As for the Saiyan Saga stuff (Since that's all I can give my opinion on for the time being), I'm all for it, especially since the timeframe is actually a realistic one.

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    • I dont think it took as long as 17 seconds i cant picture piccolo screaming for that long.But using the distance between our earth and moon would be more wise given that the author already confirmed it.

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    • Just to make sure, none of this conflicts with Goku's speed when travelling down Snake Way right? At least concerning the Saiyan Saga characters.

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    • I think that DBZ top tiers should be MFTL+ since Buu Saga even without anime feat since the distance between two populated planets is lightyears and Buu destroyed hundred of planets(I'm think "most" of them they are populated planets) in "few years". A planet like Earth needs a right type of star and a right distance from the star to be a homeworld for living beings(This is why aliens in real life are not founded easily). 

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    • I agree with the first method 

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    • Just to clarify, do you also think that we should use the distance to the real Moon from the real Earth?

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    • Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot wrote:
      So let me get this straight.

      Using the initial distance between DBZ earth and DBZ's moon, the calc resulted in MHS+.

      Using the distance between our earth and our moon, the calc is sub-rel, right?

      I just want to clear this up before anything else.

      Wait wouldnt it be relativistic? 300000 km is the distance light travels in an second, travelling that distance in 4 secs is like 1/4 of the SoL, R speeds starts at 1/10 of the SoL, so this should be 25% SoL, which is twice teh starting speed for R.

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    • Antvasima wrote:
      Just to clarify, do you also think that we should use the distance to the real Moon from the real Earth?

      yeah Akira said it himself http://media.animevice.com/uploads/0/9491/280261-toriyama_moon_super.jpg

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    • Lightbuster30 wrote: travelling that distance in 4 secs

      4 seconds isn't the timeframe we're gonna use. 17.84 seconds is...

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    • No because the timefram for cinematic events are not accepted, so they took the timeframe from the manga which is 17 seconds.

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    • Antvasima wrote:
      Just to clarify, do you also think that we should use the distance to the real Moon from the real Earth?

      I don't see why you guys shouldn't since Akira was asked the exact distance and he said it's just like ours.

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    • in dbz times, the cinematic time is ALWAYS stretched out- meaning if 10 secods passed in real time, its likely a LOT less passed in the fight scene/ scenario

      that being said even if the 4 second time is not taken into account, any upgrade is welcomed at this point, even if its not a big as expected 

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    • ^^I agree with you 100% but we have no way to prove it for that specific scene unfortuantely. That's the problem with cinematic timing. As you said, any upgrade is apprecitated right now

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    • the likelihood of it being comprssed is tiny compared to the likelihood of it not being compressed (as practically all dbz fight scenes are compressed *cough* 5 minutes *cough*)


      that being said, the 4 second thing is a losing battle, so i will give up since no one else will agree

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    • TLT1 Agreed

      Faisal, i think taking the 17 second is better since it's from the manga, even if it's shaky(i don't think piccolo was satanding for 17 seconds and screaming BE GONE!!!!!)

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    • Aimenaltair Any timeframe from manga is better than anime/movie imo, since the guess is standard and educated. While in anime/movies they give us a set time frame which is either streched or compressed accordingly for the plot, compared to real time

      In the case of DBZ it should be a lot less than 4 second since DBZ does everything in slow motion, but nothing can be done about it

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    • so the speed aside, does anyone have an idea for when the namek saga to cell saga characters will be upgraded in tiers (AP, and dura and stuff)

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    • How did they even get 17 seconds?


      Canis Latrans2 wrote:

      Antvasima wrote:
      Just to clarify, do you also think that we should use the distance to the real Moon from the real Earth?
      yeah Akira said it himself http://media.animevice.com/uploads/0/9491/280261-toriyama_moon_super.jpg

      This

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    • Faisal, In Fact everything in dragon ball is stretched lol *cough* buu saga *cough*, the saga was like what 4-5 hours long but it took them like 21 hours in real time lol.

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    • Hmm. You do have a point that it probably shouldn't take 17 seconds for Piccolo to shout that.

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    • Aimenaltair wrote:
      Faisal, In Fact everything in dragon ball is stretched lol *cough* buu saga *cough*, the saga was like what 4-5 hours long but it took them like 21 hours in real time lol.

      I know right, DBZ was the butt of jokes for these. Goku vs Frieza is a benchmark example lol. I would take the manga calc over cinematic time anyday however 17 second looks too fishy to me 

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    • Lmao, it would be funny if Piccolo actually yelled "BE GOOOOOOOOOONE" for 17 seconds. 

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    • Hmm... I am personally fine with the cinematic time since it doesn't seem too flawed in this instance; but due to the fact that we have a more accurate and calculated timeframe, we should probably go with the 17 seconds instead.

      I do find it wired that Piccolo would hold his arm out yelling BEGOOOOOOOONE FOR 17 seconds, but perhaps he only said it at the start and then just held his arm out for that duration?

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    • Going by the scans it apparently took a little while longer than the shout until the Moon exploded.

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    • well thaat gap is that of the light coming back from the moon + time for beam to reach moon

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    • But not 17 seconds bro, that's just too much, but we should take it, btw the blast was already on it's way to the moon when Piccolo said begone so...i donno but we should take 17 seconds nonetheless

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    • eh 17s is ok i guess... sub relativistic+ is fine too 

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    • No it's not. Now that we can use DBZ Kai for purposes about the manga, we can instead judge the time frame from there. (Evil grin.)

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    • I agree with using the real life moon to earth distance. If Akira said that the distance is the same, then it is the same.

      Also the OBD got the timeframe here http://www.narutoforums.com/blog.php?b=18403.

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    • https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wSJ-Z1BXMQc - You're telling me that this was 17 seconds? You can't be serious.

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    • SwordSlayer99 wrote: I agree with using the real life moon to earth distance. If Akira said that the distance is the same, then it is the same.

      Also the OBD got the timeframe here http://www.narutoforums.com/blog.php?b=18403.

      I've discussed that with DontTalk... there isn't a proper calc for how they got the timeframe cuz the link inside it is broken...

      I link the thread where I discussed it with DontTalk in the first message but I'll link it again so here

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    • So, no timeframe?

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    • SchutzenDunkelZiel1217 wrote:

      I've discussed that with DontTalk... there isn't a proper calc for how they got the timeframe cuz the link inside it is broken...

      They used aProjectile Motion Calculator to find the timeframe. After Picciolo fired his beam it launched a rock 390 meters in the air, which they then calculated to find out how much time it would take that rock to reach the ground, as the beam would reach the moon in at least the same time frame. 

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    • The 17.84 seconds timeframe still stands as that was technically proven, confirmed and accepted in the past. We simply aren't able to confirm it now. That is unless using cinematic time gets accepted...

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    • SwordSlayer99 wrote:

      SchutzenDunkelZiel1217 wrote:

      I've discussed that with DontTalk... there isn't a proper calc for how they got the timeframe cuz the link inside it is broken...

      They used aProjectile Motion Calculator to find the timeframe. After Picciolo fired his beam it launched a rock 390 meters in the air, which they then calculated to find out how much time it would take that rock to reach the ground, as the beam would reach the moon in at least the same time frame. 

      How did they know the rocks got sent 390 meters above the ground cuz there ain't nothing in the calc that isn't broken that suggest it....

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    • SchutzenDunkelZiel1217 wrote:

      How did they know the rocks got sent 390 meters above the ground cuz there ain't nothing in the calc that isn't broken that suggest it....

      Look at the comments of the calc. "It sent rocks at that height and after the moon destruction they were still free falling , That is how i got the time frame" They pixelscaled to find out how high the rock was launched.

      They found the timeframe for this feat the same way they found the timeframe for the Juubidama feat.

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    • Yeah I want proof that the rocks got sent at that height not just a baseless statement. To get that height you need to pixel scale something and the link to where the pixel scaling would supposedly be is broken...

      If they pixel scaled it then I would like to see it although do remember that as I already said the link for that is broken and the pixel scaling calc was deleted I believe. Which is the main reason why we can't confirm whether if the timeframe is accurate or not...

      I already asked DontTalk if he could recalc that feat with proper explanations and reasoning on how the timeframe came to be but as you saw in the thread I link it would seem as though that isn't possible...

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    • Heh, whether or not it was 17 secs or 1 sec, I'm just happy that this wiki is finally giving justice to Dragon Ball, we were called wankers for a long time and haters where everywhere, now it seems that things are going how is supposed to be, and all thanks to you guys! I greatly appreciate this as a DB fan, and I hope DB Super continues to deliver the feats needed to show the truth to everyone, agains, thanks guys and keep up with all the good work you are doing!

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    • What happen to the rule of 30/60 seconds? Why are you using 17 seconds for this and not 60 seconds for Mimihagis speed? That is a outliner as well. >.<

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    • HokageMangaVox wrote:
      What happen to the rule of 30/60 seconds? Why are you using 17 seconds for this and not 60 seconds for Mimihagis speed? That is a outliner as well. >.<

      in dbz 

      all feats are outliers, all statements are hyperboles amirite?

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    • So, Master Roshi should be Sub-Relativistic as well. Since he too blow up the moon in Dragon Ball. *Hides in the shadows and goes away.* <.<<<<<<.<<<.<<<.<<.<< I'm watching you.

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    • HokageMangaVox wrote:
      So, Master Roshi should be Sub-Relativistic as well. Since he too blow up the moon in Dragon Ball. *Hides in the shadows and goes away.* <.<<<<<<.<<<.<<<.<<.<< I'm watching you.

      ok what?

      he cannot react to the wave he chucked out, but saiyan saga characters can easily react to and dodge post training piccolo's waves


      post training piccolo wave speed >> mid training piccolo wave speed

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    • Sheoth wrote:
      Hmm... I am personally fine with the cinematic time since it doesn't seem too flawed in this instance; but due to the fact that we have a more accurate and calculated timeframe, we should probably go with the 17 seconds instead.

      I do find it wired that Piccolo would hold his arm out yelling BEGOOOOOOOONE FOR 17 seconds, but perhaps he only said it at the start and then just held his arm out for that duration?

      On the first part, this.

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    • Question: how fast does that make Piccolo end of Z? I wanna do him v Kirby

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    • ok hold on, if i the 17 second thing were to be put into question- then will the 4 second time frame be used?

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    • The Living Tribunal1 wrote: ok hold on, if i the 17 second thing were to be put into question- then will the 4 second time frame be used?

      If he is as fast as you say and his body can react to the speed, it shouldn't even be 3 seconds. More like 1 second. >.<

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    • The Living Tribunal1 wrote:

      HokageMangaVox wrote:
      So, Master Roshi should be Sub-Relativistic as well. Since he too blow up the moon in Dragon Ball. *Hides in the shadows and goes away.* <.<<<<<<.<<<.<<<.<<.<< I'm watching you.

      ok what?

      he cannot react to the wave he chucked out, but saiyan saga characters can easily react to and dodge post training piccolo's waves


      post training piccolo wave speed >> mid training piccolo wave speed

      Going by this: Raditz>>>>Special Beam canon>>>>Piccolo and Goku.

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    • Raditz dodged the SBC so yeah his reaction is Sub-Relativistic+.

      I don't get what you're talking about but the SBC is strong enough to pierce raditz so no SBC>>Raditz.

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    • Master Roshi destroy the moon as well. His Kamehameha was easily dodge later by King Piccolo, would that make them Su-Relativistic as well?

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    • HokageMangaVox wrote:
      Master Roshi destroy the moon as well. His Kamehameha was easily dodge later by King Piccolo, would that make them Su-Relativistic as well?

      nope, that wasnt the same kamehmeha

      the one he used to destroy the moon was a max power khh with a lot of charge up time

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    • The Living Tribunal1 wrote:
      HokageMangaVox wrote:
      Master Roshi destroy the moon as well. His Kamehameha was easily dodge later by King Piccolo, would that make them Su-Relativistic as well?
      nope, that wasnt the same kamehmeha

      the one he used to destroy the moon was a max power khh with a lot of charge up time

      That really doesn't matter though. Just because it has charge time, doesn't mean it's slower than Piccolo's attack. And Akira Toriyama also stated that Roshi was stronger than he first let on. And it hasn't changed in Super, he's still fighting against Freeza's Army.

      He's at least stronger than Yamcha and Chiaotzu who should be Planet Level.

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    • no what i meant is, cuz he had great charge up time, it had more speed and power than any other kamehameha that roshi used on db, it was never reproduced in db ever again

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    • So we're still using cinematic time then? As he has shown mastery over the form. The science of it is to induce a transformation by maximizing all the muscles with ki, and energizing them with a steady flow of said ki to boost his physical abilities and concentration considerably. Go back and check the manga, he didn't use Max Power Mode against King Piccolo. You guys rely too much on science instead of common sense.

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    • Antvasima
      Antvasima removed this reply because:
      06:18, December 6, 2015
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    • I'm fine with using the 17 second timeframe. If Toriyama says that the distance from the Moon to Earth is similar in the Dragon Ball universe then we should use that and not the previous calc which required angsizing the distance.

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    • well, i am asking- will 4 seconds be accepted if the 17 seconds is put into question?

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    • When would the speed Upgraded 

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    • Use the Kai timeframe.

      For one, it is our standard for the profiles since we agreed a while back (otherwise, Buu wouldn't be 4-A). For two, the timeframe gotten from the calc was improvised; as the manga did not state or show a definitive timeframe, a timeframe was gotten from other factors such as rocks falling. With Kai, we now have a timeframe given to us simply by counting.

      And for anyone lambasting the use of "cinematic time", I challenge you; find one instance or scene in Dragon Ball which can unambiguously be said to not be cinematic time. Allow me to bring up an example. In Broly: Second Coming, Broly is hit by a massive Kamehameha that reaches the sun in seconds. One who is critical of using this feat to guage Broly's reaction/combat speed might bring up that the fact that the Kamehameha reaching the sun that fast is an abuse of cinematic time. On the other hand, consider a scene of two characters talking. There would be no cries of cinematic time abuse there, because they're talking in a timeframe that would seem to be realistic. Other than that, can one really say there's any difference between that scene and the one where Broly is pushed into the sun (besides subject matter, of course)? I will wager that the sole reason that Kai's timeframe is being criticized is that the beam reached the moon "too fast", so we picked a longer timeframe merely because the fact that it took longer makes it seem "more realistic". 

      Bringing cinematic time into the debate completely muddles everything because there is no real standard on what constitutes an abuse of cinematic time (other than the "realism" factor, which is moot anyway when dealing with series like Dragon Ball, or most anime or manga series for that matter).

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    • Bringing cinematic time into the debate completely muddles everything because there is no real standard on what constitutes an abuse of cinematic time (other than the "realism" factor, which is moot anyway when dealing with series like Dragon Ball, or most anime or manga series for that matter). </div>

      This

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    • This is very true...

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    • Unclechairman brings a very good point. Agreed with him completely.

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    • i think i agree with unclechairman

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    • Antvasima
      Antvasima removed this reply because:
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    • I agree with Unclechairman. If we're using DBZ Kai, then we should the timeframe from there, instead of calculating a timeframe.

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    • also,  iirc the calculated timeframe was based on the assumption that the rocks in the final pannel were from piccolo's flight, when in fact, gohan too was causing rocks to fly in all directions

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    • Hmm? Unclechairman makes a good point. What do the rest of the staff think?

      (This would likely also affect the Naruto speed upgrade discussion.)

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    • I JUST SAID USE DBZ KAI'S TIME FRAME! REALLY?! REALLY GUYS!

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    • Davy0 wrote:
      I JUST SAID USE DBZ KAI'S TIME FRAME! REALLY?! REALLY GUYS!

      Yeah, but Unclechairman made it sound really smart...

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    • SCREW THAT CRAP! DAMN YOU!

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    • lol

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    • @Sheoth is right Unclechairman made it sound reasonable lol.

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    • I'm fine with using DBZ Kai's timeframe, but the argument of cinematic timing is an entirely legit one. This is especially true for Dragon Ball, where blasts DRASTICALLY vary in speed depending on the tone or pacing of the scene (unless that one mountain Piccolo blew up was farther away from them than the moon).

      Regardless, that's not what I currently have reservations with. It's the use of a summary from the back of volume 8 to multiply Goku's speed, though Tom is currently digging up some info on that.

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    • Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot wrote:
      I'm fine with using DBZ Kai's timeframe, but the argument of cinematic timing is an entirely legit one. This is especially true for Dragon Ball, where blasts DRASTICALLY vary in speed depending on the tone or pacing of the scene (unless that one mountain Piccolo blew up was farther away from them than the moon.

      Regardless, that's not what I currently have reservations with. It's the use of a summary from the back of volume 8 to multiply Goku's speed, though Tom is currently digging up some info on that.

      welp, in dbz the time during battle is always seen to be stretched out....

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    • So basically... he took my idea... and placed pretty words around it... Hm... what does that sound like?

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    • GTgokussj4 wrote:
      @Sheoth is right Unclechairman made it sound reasonable lol.

      This

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    • The Living Tribunal1 wrote:

      welp, in dbz the time during battle is always seen to be stretched out....

      "Only five minutes left until Namek explodes!"

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    • Please stop yelling and cursing Davy. It is very inappropriate behaviour.

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    • 20 episodes later fight is still going on ( ͡ᵔ ͜ʖ ͡ᵔ ).

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    • I only said Damn.

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    • Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot wrote:
      The Living Tribunal1 wrote:

      welp, in dbz the time during battle is always seen to be stretched out....

      "Only five minutes left until Namek explodes!"

      which is exactly what i said, the actual time always seems to be stretched out as in hours pass on screen, while 5 minutes of actual time passes....

      so using that logic, the time frame is at least 4 seconds, instead of exactly 4 seconds (when cinematic timing as not taken into account) so cinematic timing to real time logic makes it faster (lol)

      either way, in my reasoning, its gotta be 4 seconds (using the time relation makes it a smaller time interval)

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    • Hmmmm... well so far it seems as though Sheoth, SwordSlayer99 and Unclechairman agree with using Cinematic time.

      On the other hand we have at least DontTalk, Lord Kavpeny and Illuminati478 who disagree or at least disagreed with using Cinematic time.

      I'm pretty sure Antvasmia is still neutral on this and I'm gonna be neutral on this as well for a bit...

      @Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot: Well so far from what I found it seems that it would either be the head editor or Akira who wrote that I don't know how much this helps however...

      @Davy0: Bro it's technically The Living Tribunal1's idea as he's the person that's been suggesting using cinematic time from the beginning...

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    • Faster than light Saiyan Saga and they said it was a dubbed error( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)lol.

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    • If using Cinematic Time is the only method to calculating the DBZ speeds here, then i agree to using them. @SchutzenDunkelZiel1217

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    • SchutzenDunkelZiel1217 wrote:

      @Davy0: Bro it's technically The Living Tribunal1's idea as he's the person that's been suggesting using cinematic time from the beginning...

      MFW an admin commends me for something

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    • The Living Tribunal1 wrote:

      which is exactly what i said, the actual time always seems to be stretched out as in hours pass on screen, while 5 minutes of actual time passes....

      I am agreeing with you. I was giving the most famous example.

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    • GTgokussj4 wrote: Faster than light Saiyan Saga and they said it was a dubbed error( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)lol.

      Oh boy ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

      Edit: Oops looks like I quoted myself lol.

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    • Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot wrote:
      The Living Tribunal1 wrote:

      which is exactly what i said, the actual time always seems to be stretched out as in hours pass on screen, while 5 minutes of actual time passes....

      I am agreeing with you. I was giving the most famous example.

      cool nice (thumbs up icon- writing the text cuz idk how to actually put it here)

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    • Oblivion00 wrote:

      GTgokussj4 wrote: Faster than light Saiyan Saga and they said it was a dubbed error( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)lol.

      Oh boy ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

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    • Tch, he didn't say use DBZ Kai, he just said use Cinematic Timing... Tch tch...

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    • Well, this is a rather controversial issue. On the one hand, it would be far more convenient to use cinematic time when no apparent time distortion is going on, and we have no other more reliable means to gauge the time spent. On the other, it is not certain that we could accurately gauge whether it is distorted or not.

      Maybe we could use it on a case-by-case basis?

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    • @Cross: We can still use the timeframe of 17.84 seconds and it would be more preferred as that was attained from the manga while the 4 seconds is from the anime.

      Manga is still considered the main form of canon while Kai is secondary canon from what we've set out.

      But then again manga timeframe has it's own faults...

      @Davy0: You always have a retort huh....

      @The Living Tribunal1: Interesting...

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    • the other method is based on the assumption that the rocks fallen below came from piccolo's ascend when in fact gohan was blowing rocks all over tehe place as well, causing turmoil i the region, so i'd say that calculation holds a faaar greater likelyhood of being inaccurate

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    • Also, Davy, please stop disturbing the thread. Different users keep complaining about that you get special treatment. You will have to keep your impulses in check.

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    • @SDZiel1217: Oh okay. Well which ever one you use, go for it man.

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    • @Schutzendunkelziel Well, since DB Super is built upon the DB Kai continuity, we have based the other statistics on this anime series, not the manga.

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    • They are in check, not like I'm being evil... ANYWAY!.

      FTL DB characters. You could just make them Relative instead, right? We could even meet in the middle. 8.5 seconds.

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    • also, plz notice my comment as well, those fallen rocks were far more likely to be in their place due to gohan's wreckage

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    • @Antvasima: Really now from what I remember Kai was still considered as secondary canon from the first thread made by Lord Kavpeny regarding DBZ stats but oh well...

      @The living Trubunal1: Like I said before this calc went though checking for quite some time and I seriously doubt OBD wouldn't consider that but then again there's a possibility that they didn't so....

      Alright then well so far it seems that those who agree with using cinematic time from among the staff are Sheoth, SwordSlayer99, Unclechairman, CrossverseCrisis (I'll count ya in here) and perhaps Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot (I'm not sure about you Azathoth do ya agree or disagree), perhaps me (I still don't know yet)

      Those who don't agree are DontTalk, Lord Kavpeny and Illuminati478 who disagree or at least disagreed with using Cinematic time.

      Neutral: Perhaps Me, Antvasima...

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    • Any timeframe would work for me once they are getting a upgrade but i didn't expect this.

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    • SchutzenDunkelZiel1217 wrote:
      @Antvasima: Really now from what I remember Kai was still considered as secondary canon from the first thread made by Lord Kavpeny regarding DBZ stats but oh well...

      @The living Trubunal1: Like I said before this calc went though checking for quite some time and I seriously doubt OBD wouldn't consider that but then again there's a possibility that they didn't so....

      Alright then well so far it seems that those who agree with using cinematic time from among the staff are Sheoth, SwordSlayer99, Unclechairman, CrossverseCrisis (I'll count ya in here) and perhaps Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot (I'm not sure about you Azathoth do ya agree or disagree), perhaps me (I still don't know yet)

      Those who don't agree are DontTalk, Lord Kavpeny and Illuminati478 who disagree or at least disagreed with using Cinematic time.

      Neutral: Perhaps Me, Antvasima...

      there was a clear flaw- which i pointed out- and no one mentioned- now idk why that happened at all, but it was very clear from my view

      >choas was going on, millions of tonnes of debris flying around

      > piccolo rises up with some debrid

      >all that debris is in a complex path


      seeing all of this, it is faaaar more likely that the debris came from gohan and not piccolo

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    • GTgokussj4 wrote:
      Any timeframe would work for me once they are getting a upgrade but i didn't expect this.

      Lol if that is accepted (though I 99.9% doubt it) then the gap would even more less riculous regarding speed

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    • @The Living Tribunal1: Again I seriously doubt anyone wouldn't consider it or mention it but I'll go check the comments on that again if I don't find anything I guess I'll support using Cinematic time and perhaps get a few more supporters for it among the staff...

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    • @Schutzen

      Kai is 100% secondary to the manga. Yes, we use it, but only if it's not contradicted. That's what makes this a more difficult case. Anyway, I'm still pretty neutral on the subject.

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    • Hmm. I thought that it overwrote the old manga continuity?

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    • @Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot: Alright then. Those who agreefrom among the staff are Sheoth, SwordSlayer99, Unclechairman, CrossverseCrisis and perhaps me (I still don't know yet)

      Those who don't agree are DontTalk, Lord Kavpeny and Illuminati478

      Neutral: Perhaps Me, Antvasima, Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot...

      Btw it would seem as though the volume summary was written by either the head editor or Akira I'll post this again just in case you didn't see it...

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    • @Antvasima: As far as I know it didn't but it was announce as being canon to the manga so I'm guessing we use it for certain things but so far it's regarded as secondary canon by most...

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    • Well, I have asked Lord Kavpeny in private to look through this and the Naruto discussion again regarding cinematic time, but he seems to be very busy.

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    • @Ant

      It functions more as an addition than a retcon.

      @Schutzen

      Alright, thanks. Where'd you find that, by the way?

      Anyway, I'm off to bed, but I'll check back in on this when I get up.

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    • Okay. Good night. I hope that Lord Kavpeny will weigh in on this soon. My judgement is unreliable nowadays.

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    • @Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot: I asked a few people to look around after I got their answer and I asked FanofRPGs the person who provided me with that in the first place his reply was similar let's just leave it at that for now. I'm still waiting for a few more answers on that actually....

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    • due to the point made about piccolo not shouting be gone for 17 seconds, while im against cinematic timing, on THIS occasion ill have to go with it, because 17 seconds is way to long to try shout that. seriously try it in real life, not too loud though or people gunna think you're special.

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    • Can anybody do the calc for the manga version using other method? 17 second looks unrealistic 

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    • So, if the case that the cinematic time is accepted for this feat, that would mean that the KI Blast of Piccolo was travel at least 40% of the speed of light, right?

      So by use the same method used by SchutzenDunkelZiel1217 in the previous blog, we going to have both Goku SSj and Frieza 100% at MFTL speed (at least 160 times FTL).

      So in that case, is clear that most characters of the Buu Saga (and the high tiers of the Cell Saga) would be likely MFTL+.

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    • Antvasima
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    • nowhere was it said that it is x50 to all stats, speed increases,sure, but Nobody knows exactly how much.

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    • Master Roshi's moon buster is an outlier because King Piccolo (Who's far stronger than Roshi) only displayed city busting power with his strongest attack (That being the Explosive Demon Wave)

      Piccolo's ki blast when he destroyed the moon was really casual and required no charge up time. Neither did Vegeta's Galick Gun.

      I sincerely request you stop derailing this thread.

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    • Antvasima
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    • So you're just gonna randomly call a guy a wanker? I can just call you a downplayer you know. Piccolo gathered his ki energy into his fist and fired it, it's not the same as "charging" like the Spirit Bomb.

      The difference is thet didn't have conservation of energy back then, whereas they needed it during DBZ. That and Raditz, during the fight with Piccolo and Goku did not go all-out against them, he was beating them up rather casually.

      Regardless, this is entirely off-topic, and I request you drop this now.

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    • Do you even know how DBZ works? All attacks have a restrained AOE or else there would be no story. Do you really want to argue Frieza's Supernova being >>> Vegeta's Final Explosion simply because of the lack of area-of-effect?

      Kai is not filler, it's what we consider the most recent canon and the one we're using.

      For the last time, stop derailing.

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    • Kai was stated to be canon by Torishima and flashback footage in DBS uses DBZ Kai

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    • The Super Anime is canon, not the manga

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    • Okay. The irrelevant posts have been removed, and the troll has been blocked for a month. I vaguely recall that this isn't the first time he derails a thread either.

      Since this is an important issue for this wiki, let's please return to being on-topic.

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    • I don't like using cinematic event, i instead suggest that you guys should re-calculate the entire speed of the blast, because if we use DB's cinematic event we should use it for other fictional verses as well or else it would be unfair.

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    • Aimenaltair wrote:
      I don't like using cinematic event, i instead suggest that you guys should re-calculate the entire speed of the blast, because if we use DB's cenimatic event we should use it for other fictional verses as well or else it would be unfair.

      ok- the only other option is to consider the time as considerably LESS than 4 seconds (since thats what happens in every dbz fight scene)


      also that 17 second thing has its weak points

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    • If the upgrade is accepted, how fast will Cell saga characters be?And Buu saga?

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    • TLT1: or we can calculate the timeframe once again, i know the 17 second is absurd and we shouldn't take it into considiration.

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    • L5V7M5L4D5 wrote:
      If the upgrade is accepted, how fast will Cell saga characters be?And Buu saga?

      Most likely FTL+/MFTL to MFTL+ for the top tier of the buu saga.

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    • Aimenaltair wrote:
      TLT1: or we can calculate the timeframe once again, i know the 17 second is absurd and we shouldn't take it into considiration.

      but what else can we use

      OH WAIT WAITWAIT

      we have the time it takes for light to come back

      now subtract that from total time'

      and take the ratio of this new time and time it takes for light to come back

      and we can use this ratio for speed

      i mean the flow of time wouldnt randomly change in the middle of a scene right, so the ratios can be taken

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    • in this case, cimenatic time can be used as the light from the moon comes back in the same scene- so considering the flow of time as constant through the scene (comnsidering otherwise would be absurd), we can use the normal time methods to calculate speed- which gives us a speed of 0.4713C

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    • You can ask the calculation group about if this is workable.

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    • okay

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    • Anyone, isn't it Toriyama himself say that it took 17 seconds, or am I wrong. I remember reading that somewhere in the thread.

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    • The real cal howard wrote:
      Anyone, isn't it Toriyama himself say that it took 17 seconds, or am I wrong. I remember reading that somewhere in the thread.

      No he didn't he said that the distance betwenn moon and earth is the same, the 17 second was just timeframed from rocks and piccolo.

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    • Ohh. My fault. Hehe.

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    • We all make mistakes bro.

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    • Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot wrote:
      I'm fine with using DBZ Kai's timeframe, but the argument of cinematic timing is an entirely legit one. This is especially true for Dragon Ball, where blasts DRASTICALLY vary in speed depending on the tone or pacing of the scene (unless that one mountain Piccolo blew up was farther away from them than the moon).

      And what is your standard for assuming this is an abuse of cinematic time? The very fact that the blast seemingly travelled slower than the one which Piccolo shot at the moon? A simpler solution would be that the blast simply travelled slower.

      Speaking of which, *ahem* pardon me for not bringing this up earlier, but I seem to recall reading that the OBD considers this (Piccolo's moon-busting blast speed) an outlier because it travelled so much faster than any other blast shot in the entire saga. They may have a point.

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    • Quick questioin, if these speed upgrades are accepted will they affect only dbz speeds or will GT characters get a speed upgrade as well?

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    • I'm fairly certain the GT characters would be upgraded as they're scaled to everything that's not related to Dragon Ball Super.

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    • hold on guys forget about abuse or anything: how about this? ok?

      we take the total time of the even (time difference of piccolo firing and the moon starting to shine)- and we take out the time for light to come back from the moon

      then we make a ratio of this new time to the time taken by light to come back from the moon

      this ratio is the inverse of the ratio of the speed of light and the speed of them beam

      this is possible since the time flow rate is the same through the whole scene!

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    • What if we consider the whole moon bust speed to be an outlier... just throwing this out here...

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    • SchutzenDunkelZiel1217 wrote:
      What if we consider the whole moon bust speed to be an outlier... just throwing this out here...

      and what makes it an outlier exactly?

      any other big speed feat in dbz is travel speed

      this is directly relating to combat speed and reaction speed

      also, relooking at the scene, the time is more so around 3.5 to 4 seconds (the time between the beam getting sent off and the moon starting to shine)

      using simple ratios we can get the speed

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    • Then this entire discussion and all other ones relating to it were pointless, which is why I was a bit hesitant to mention it.

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    • SchutzenDunkelZiel1217 wrote:
      What if we consider the whole moon bust speed to be an outlier... just throwing this out here...

      It is not an outlier, as we still have Goku swatting Death Beams to use

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    • The Living Tribunal1 wrote:

      and what makes it an outlier exactly?

      The fact that it travelled far faster than any other attack shot in the entire saga and beyond.

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    • Unclechairman wrote:
      The Living Tribunal1 wrote:

      and what makes it an outlier exactly?

      The fact that it travelled far faster than any other attack shot in the entire saga and beyond.

      and how exactly are those other attacks slower?.....

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    • Nah its considered an outlier in obd because goku post king kai training was hypersonic crossing snake way road.

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    • @The Living Trubunal1: Hmmmm... just the fact that it's an absurdly high speed when compared to the previous speed stats would make it an outlier.

      There's also the fact that there's literally nothing later on that can be calculated which would result in a similar speed stat...

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    • I would like to see an accepted calc which results in Relativistic or higher from later on in the series if there are any...

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    • SchutzenDunkelZiel1217 wrote:

      There's also the fact that there's literally nothing later on that can be calculated which would result in a similar speed stat...

      The Death Beams are light speed according to 2 sources IIRC

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    • SchutzenDunkelZiel1217 wrote:
      @The Living Trubunal1: Hmmmm... just the fact that it's an absurdly high speed when compared to the previous speed stats would make it an outlier.

      There's also the fact that there's literally nothing later on that can be calculated which would result in a similar speed stat...

      1- previous speed stats ere based on that 9000 km moon distance thing werent they........

      2- later on we do NOT have either numbers or the time frame to calculate anything.........

      as of now, the most important thing is the time frame COMBINED with the time for light to come back....

      unless you wanna suggest that the time frame rate was magincally changed in the midst of the feat

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    • CHILLVIBEZZ wrote:
      Nah its considered an outlier in obd because goku post king kai training was hypersonic crossing snake way road.

      So Dragon Ball characters are faster than Saiyan saga goku from z thats doesn't make much sense.

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    • @The Living Tribunal1: Uhhh... what are ya talking about. Let me tell ya the reason why it may be considered an outlier. It's absurdly superior to speed from previous sagas which I believe didn't have calculations to support them...

      Later on there's no feat that can be calculated which shows that they travel at Relativistic speeds...

      Show me another accepted calc for DBZ which results in Relativistic or higher...

      @FanofRPGs: Do bring those sources I'd like to check...

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    • well... the buu saga is absrurdly superior to cell saga......


      also, there is not other calc because there is no other instance when the time and a reference speed have been set so clearly

      how about you show me a calc that puts them below this speed (and the calc must not consider the bogus 9000 km to moon claim)

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    • GTgokussj4 wrote:

      CHILLVIBEZZ wrote:
      Nah its considered an outlier in obd because goku post king kai training was hypersonic crossing snake way road.

      So Dragon Ball characters are faster than Saiyan saga goku from z thats doesn't make much sense.

      Don't look at me here Akira wrote that...

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    • Feats I need calculated feats bro. Anything Relativistic or higher after the Piccolo beam thing is fine...

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    • The Living Tribunal1 wrote:
      Unclechairman wrote:
      The Living Tribunal1 wrote:

      and what makes it an outlier exactly?

      The fact that it travelled far faster than any other attack shot in the entire saga and beyond.
      and how exactly are those other attacks slower?.....

      See Azathoth's comment about Piccolo's mountain-busting blast.

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    • SchutzenDunkelZiel1217 wrote:
      Feats I need calculated feats bro. Anything Relativistic or higher after the Piccolo beam thing is fine...

      we dont have any time references for any combat situations after this point 

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    • So literally no feats after the Moon bust thing supports Relativistic speeds huh...

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    • The last time I heard of the Death Beams being calced, they apparently came out as Massively Hypersonic. There's the thing that FanofRPGs brought up about them being unable to be sensed by the Z Fighters who were able to sense the Ginyu Force pods, but that got quite a bit of flak.

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    • Piccolo busting the moon isn't an outlier....seriously come on...

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    • SchutzenDunkelZiel1217 wrote:
      So literally no feats after the Moon bust thing supports Relativistic speeds huh...

      and there is nothing contradicting this either 

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    • King Kai was unable to keep track of the fight between Frieza and Goku but was able to sense the Saiyan pods which travel at FTL and it was decided that it was harder to track something that moving around so much as compare to something that already has a set destination so... yeah still no feats...

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    • SchutzenDunkelZiel1217 wrote:
      King Kai was unable to keep track of the fight between Frieza and Goku but was able to sense the Saiyan pods which travel at FTL and it was decided that it was harder to track something that moving around so much as compare to something that already has a set destination so... yeah still no feats...

      The Death Beams are straight, not all zig-zaggy

      http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/14/149746/3899665-1979781074-37440.jpg

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    • SchutzenDunkelZiel1217 wrote:
      King Kai was unable to keep track of the fight between Frieza and Goku but was able to sense the Saiyan pods which travel at FTL and it was decided that it was harder to track something that moving around so much as compare to something that already has a set destination so... yeah still no feats...

      stil no contradictions....

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    • The Living Tribunal1 wrote: and there is nothing contradicting this either 

      Nothing contradicting it?... what about the fact that they would jump from MHS (still no calc for this either I believe) to Relativistic with only one feat and no others which would make it consistent ...

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    • SchutzenDunkelZiel1217 wrote:

      The Living Tribunal1 wrote: and there is nothing contradicting this either 

      Nothing contradicting it?... what about the fact that they would jump from MHS (still no calc for this either I believe) to Relativistic with only one feat and no others which would make it consistent ...

      you mean the same way they jump from star level to multi ss level... also werent the old speeds based off the 9000km distance claim


      either way, such jumps have hapened in dbz

      keep in mind all dem blitzes as well 

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    • Is friezas planet Vegeta busting canon because I'm pretty sure I recall his blast being calculated at sub relativistic or relativistic speeds sometime ago.

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    • SchutzenDunkelZiel1217 wrote:

      The Living Tribunal1 wrote: and there is nothing contradicting this either 

      Nothing contradicting it?... what about the fact that they would jump from MHS (still no calc for this either I believe) to Relativistic with only one feat and no others which would make it consistent ...

      The same could be said of going from Realativistic+ in Buu Saga to MFTL+ in Super

      or going from Island to Moon when no training session was mentioned, but those are still accepted

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    • CHILLVIBEZZ wrote:
      Is friezas planet Vegeta busting canon because I'm pretty sure I recall his blast being calculated at sub relativistic or relativistic speeds sometime ago.

      true, and that blast was pushing away a lot of mass in its path, who knows how fast it would have been un-obstructed

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    • @The Living Tribunal1: The old 9000 thing was also debated upon as being an outlier in OBD and I believe here as well but with much higher number the likely hood of it being an outlier is much much higher...

      Yeah for that Beerus appeared and he far outclassed them.. you know the rest...

      Remember Bleach remember that blitzes don't mean anything...

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    • where did the mhs+ speeds themselves come from?

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    • Obviously from the Moon bust... do I need to explain why it's more likely to be an outlier with a much higher distance and much lesser timeframe...

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    • SchutzenDunkelZiel1217 wrote:
      Obviously from the Moon bust... do I need to explain why it's more likely to be an outlier with a much higher distance and much lesser timeframe...

      I think he's more asking where did the speeds that suggesting relativistic would be an outlier come from.

      I.E., what's stopping characters from around the start of DBZ from being relativistic

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    • CHILLVIBEZZ wrote:
      Is friezas planet Vegeta busting canon because I'm pretty sure I recall his blast being calculated at sub relativistic or relativistic speeds sometime ago.

      Yes. It is (pretty) explicitly referenced in Super.

      Then again, there's the question of whether the speed of that blast can be scaled to anyone considering there might not have been a single blast of comparable speed in the saga that anyone was able to react to.

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    • Unclechairman wrote:
      CHILLVIBEZZ wrote:
      Is friezas planet Vegeta busting canon because I'm pretty sure I recall his blast being calculated at sub relativistic or relativistic speeds sometime ago.
      Yes. It is (pretty) explicitly referenced in Super.

      Then again, there's the question of whether the speed of that blast can be scaled to anyone considering there might not have been a single blast of comparable speed in the saga that anyone was able to react to.

      I would think so, after all why wouldn't Piccolo use his fastest blasts against Raditz or Napp?

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    • LordXcano wrote:

      SchutzenDunkelZiel1217 wrote:
      Obviously from the Moon bust... do I need to explain why it's more likely to be an outlier with a much higher distance and much lesser timeframe...

      I think he's more asking where did the speeds that suggesting relativistic would be an outlier come from.

      I.E., what's stopping characters from around the start of DBZ from being relativistic

      Hmmmmm... the fact that Dragon Ball characters are only MHS at best which is still unproven technically and they jump in speeds by hundreds to thousands of times.

      Also the fact that there's literally no feat after that which supports Relativistic or higher speeds afterwards would be the reasons...

      Listen if ya can look up anything which results in Relativistic or higher after the Moon Bust that would get rid of the thought that the moon bust is an outlier...

      So think ya can find any...

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    • I'd like to point out that in order for something to be an outlier, it has to be contradicted by something that comes afterward. If a character gets a new powerup and jumps from Planet level to Universe level, despite the fact that that's a huge jump, it's still not an outlier as it's not outright contradicted and has a viable explanation. On the other hand, if that character goes straight back to struggling with Planet level characters afterward with no explanation (such as a powerdown or the powerup being temporary), than the Universal feat runs the risk of being written off as an outlier.

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    • And what if a massive jump happened and literally nothing similar was shown ever again...

      Would you still actually accept that feat...

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    • SchutzenDunkelZiel1217 wrote:

      LordXcano wrote:

      SchutzenDunkelZiel1217 wrote:
      Obviously from the Moon bust... do I need to explain why it's more likely to be an outlier with a much higher distance and much lesser timeframe...
      I think he's more asking where did the speeds that suggesting relativistic would be an outlier come from.

      I.E., what's stopping characters from around the start of DBZ from being relativistic

      Hmmmmm... the fact that Dragon Ball characters are only MHS at best which is still unproven technically and they jump in speeds by hundreds to thousands of times.

      Also the fact that there's literally no feat after that which supports Relativistic or higher speeds afterwards would be the reasons...

      Listen if ya can look up anything which results in Relativistic or higher after the Moon Bust that would get rid of the thought that the moon bust is an outlier...

      So think ya can find any...

      I'm saying a relativistic attack, since there's no contradictory feats, would be the baseline and previous speeds would be downscaled from that.

      As you said yourself, there's nothing proving MHS, so all we can work off of is this moon attack speed.

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    • It's contradictory because of the massive jump.

      If there's no way to prove MHS speeds then it'd be labeled as unknown nothing more...

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    • SchutzenDunkelZiel1217 wrote:
      It's contradictory because of the massive jump.

      If there's no way to prove MHS speeds then it'd be labeled as unknown nothing more...

      Massive jump from what? We don't know their speeds, there just aren't the feats there to tell us this. Even if the Moon calc came out as MFTL+ it wouldn't be a massive jump except when compared to the previously assumed MHS speed.

      You keep saying there's no way to prove MHS speeds, but isn't that just helping the relativistic calc? If there's a bunch of unknowns, then something comes up to clear up those unknowns, you use the feat that came up.

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    • I'll just say this Goku after training with King Kai traveled the snake way and his speed resulted in Hypersonic I should've said this earlier...

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    • Personally, I believe that a midway would be to make them in that speed tier which was what, sub rel or rel? That'll apply to Saiyan Saga and Kaio-Ken, but the others on a different saga (i.e. Buu, 17, Fused Piccolo, etc.) are scaled by their own speed feats, but no matter what, are above sub rel or rel. (i.e. Ginyu Force, Nail, Zarbon, etc.) Just my personal opinion to keep the backlash off, so take it with a grain of salt and all that jazz, but I would greatly appreciate it if this was considered. 

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    • SchutzenDunkelZiel1217 wrote:
      I'll just say this Goku after training with King Kai traveled the snake way and his speed resulted in Hypersonic I should've said this earlier...

      Travel speed != combat speed.

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    • SchutzenDunkelZiel1217 wrote:
      And what if a massive jump happened and literally nothing similar was shown ever again...

      Would you still actually accept that feat...

      Does said jump come with a viable explanation (such as a powerup)?

      If so, yes I would. Darkspine Sonic is Universal for a reason.

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    • @LordXcano: So you consider dodging something as combat speed huh.

      I won't agree here as it's pointless. Just so you know it's gonna be like this DBZ chracters "Hypersonic Travel Speed with Relativistic combat speed" are ya ok with that...

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    • Unclechairman wrote: Does said jump come with a viable explanation (such as a powerup)?

      If so, yes I would. Darkspine Sonic is Universal for a reason.

      Viable explanation that I can't say as I don't really know if it would be truly legit. But what if that feat was contradicted later on...

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    • What is it but a feat of reactions?

      Are you implying that it's ridiculous? The alternative is Mach 50 Krillin, you know.

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    • Listen do ya know that Dragon Ball has no MHS speeds feats...

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    • SchutzenDunkelZiel1217 wrote:
      Listen do ya know that Dragon Ball has no MHS speeds feats...
      • cough* kid goku's light feat*cough

      (it was an outlier anyway)

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    • SchutzenDunkelZiel1217 wrote:

      Unclechairman wrote: Does said jump come with a viable explanation (such as a powerup)?

      If so, yes I would. Darkspine Sonic is Universal for a reason.

      Viable explanation that I can't say as I don't really know if it would be truly legit. But what if that feat was contradicted later on...

      I doubt it would be, as Darkspine Sonic was a one-off thing. But if he appeared again and struggled numerous times with beings far weaker than Universe level with no explanation, then him defeating a Universe level being would risk being classed as an outlier. This is the point I'm trying to make; for something to be an outlier, it typically has to be contradicted by what comes after, especially in shounen manga that typically set up linear scales of power (usually based on the Sorting Algorithm of Evil trope).

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    • SchutzenDunkelZiel1217 wrote:
      Listen do ya know that Dragon Ball has no MHS speeds feats...

      I doubt that. Frieza's Death Beams were calced at Massively Hypersonic, I believe, at least according to one anonymous user who edited 17's page a long time ago.

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    • @The Living Tribunal1: I don't understand why you'd bring that up...

      @Uncle chairman: Very Well then....

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    • When I said Dragon Ball I meant Dragon Ball Part 1...

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    • @SchutzenDunkelZiel1217 Yes I am ok with that.

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    • Oh.

      Planet level and Supersonic+ Saiyan Saga characters. They'd never win another fight against another Planet level character.

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    • They'd be Hypersonic actually...

      Depending on how this goes...

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    • So we are just disregard Mr. Popo statement even if he is the teacher.

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    • When literally nothing else supports it yeah...

      And Goku traveling Snakeway was Hypersonic right...

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    • Mmm, in DB combat speed greatly exceeds travel speed, so... the snakeway calc isn't even a factor.

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    • It applies to the whole Faster than Lightning thing back in Dragon Ball unless ya consider that as Combat speed...

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    • Well, Goku was dodging lightning not outrunning it

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    • Ok did that even happen in the manga...

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    • I remember that thng about getting the crown that summons lightning was filler, but it was stated in the manga that Goku trained with Popo and learned being faster than lighting that way.

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    • Yeah no feats only a simple statement that's contradicted way later on in the story...

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    • SchutzenDunkelZiel1217 wrote:
      When literally nothing else supports it yeah...

      And Goku traveling Snakeway was Hypersonic right...

      The point of the training was to be faster than lightning as shown here and sharpen his reflexesafter those three years of train even Kami the god who watches the earth couldn't see him.and Kami is faster than Mr.popo.

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    • How was it contradicted? The next thing we see after that training was Piccolo Jr. Vs. Goku, and after that, the Raditz fight. and then, the moon busting thing, nothing has contradicted it.

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    • Unless ya shown me a feat where Goku was indeed Faster Than Light it isn't gonna mean much and that statement would be disregarded as it's contradicted way later on...

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    • How many times do I need to say Snake way traveling resulted in Hypersonic....

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    • Hmmm so Dragon Ball part 1 is going to be downgraded to Hypersonic speed?

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    • Snake way feat is the only thing contradicting itself because they have been shown to make faster than that.

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    • Yeah no they haven't.

      1) No MHS feats in Dragon Ball part 1.

      2) Questionable Outlier Relativistic feat with the moon bust and nothing else...

      Dragon Ball doesn't have almost any notable speed feats...

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    • FTL things didn't happen until Namek Saga (unless you count Goku dodging Ten Shin Han's Tayo-ken, but that was just a gag), and the other problem is that other than the lightning statement made by Popo, is powerscaling by other characters. Also, no it hasn't been contradicted, only been supported, i don't want to sound rude, but, i think the better question is what is opposing them being faster than lightning?

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    • The snakeway thing is not even a factor because combat speed ≠ travel speed, in fact, combat speed is >>> travel speed, so they can still be Hypersonic traveling speed and MHS+ in combat speed/reaction speed

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    • Aaaaand, the fact that we have the moon busting thing, wich is our only feat to calc, is considered an "outlier", that doesn't make any sense, you asked for a feat, you got it, and now you don't accept it because it's not the same speed you considered them to be...just a little flash back at DBS ep 12 will make us remember what this means.

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    • Alexcar3000 wrote: The snakeway thing is not even a factor because combat speed ≠ travel speed, in fact, combat speed is >>> travel speed, so they can still be Hypersonic traveling speed and MHS+ in combat speed/reaction speed.

      Yeah show me one MHS feat and the faster than lightning isn't considered as Combat Speed...

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    • SchutzenDunkelZiel1217 wrote:
      How many times do I need to say Snake way traveling resulted in Hypersonic....

      I call that PIS.

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    • There was nothing remotely close to the Universe level DB, then we got it in Ep 12 and some called it an outlier because that wasn't the level of power they considered the characters to be, and the same can apply to the moon busting thing, the fact that well, "nothing" seemed that fast before because we "didn't" have the feats and then it happens after some years worth of training seems "off", but again, we "didn't" had anything like that right, so you can't call it an outlier because we knew nothing about their speed and nothing contradicts it later.

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    • Wbaez93 wrote: I call that PIS.

      Based on what exactly. The relativistic feat is now considered as Combat speed.

      The Snake way Travelling speed is the only legit one we have.

      And Feat > Statement. And this is why the MHS statement is contradicted...

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    • There wasn't any statement nor feat contradicting the MHS+ thing, only supporting it.

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    • The feat that happened later on doesn't contradict it in any way or form, yes it was considerably faster, but that's after some years worth of training.

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    • Well Dragon Ball Super showed us the feats of Goku's fight with Beerus. It also needs to be contradicted for it to be considered as an outlier although Chapter 6 of Super's manga implied that Champa and Beerus were going to destroy the universe so it seems that Toriyama may not backtrack. Anyway this thread is about the speed of Dragon Ball characters before Super. How is this going to affect the speed of Namek Arc, Cell arc and Buu arc characters if Part 1 Dragon Ball characters are going to be downgraded to Hypersonic?

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    • @Alexcar3000: Hmmmm...

      1) You do know that the "Faster than Lightning" speed thing was for all speed stats right not for just combat speed....

      2) There's no feats which support MHS and later on the Snakeway feat contradicted it...

      3) You said ya considered the Relativistic feat as Combat speed right...

      4) Combat speed has no relation to travel speed as such the Relativistic Feat would never support it even if it wasn't an outlier...

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    • Well, only for the stats on early arcs if someone wants to make a Vs...also the actual God Tiers speed were calced based on travel speed, and if we know the differences in early DBZ with combat speed and travel speed, we may get an idea of how fast the God Tiers actually fight. Edit: This was on response to @Oblivion00

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    • @Oblivion00: That depends...

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    • Are we arguing about travel speed here? What's the point of arguing about travel speed? It mostly ends up useless in fights anyway.

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    • Alexcar3000 wrote: Well, only for the stats on early arcs if someone wants to make a Vs...also the actual God Tiers speed were calced based on travel speed, and if we know the differences in early DBZ with combat speed and travel speed, we may get an idea of how fast the God Tiers actually fight.

      Don't avoid the question... I'll deal with the Relativistic thing later... For now yes the MHS statement... again you do know that's not just for combat speed as it never implied that. It was just speed is general which is usually travel speed...

      Now it get contradicted later on with the snakeway feat. And the Relativistic feat won't help here. Combat speed doesn't effect travel speed...

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    • Unclechairman wrote: Are we arguing about travel speed here? What's the point of arguing about travel speed? It mostly ends up useless in fights anyway.

      That's what it's come down to I guess...

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    • SchutzenDunkelZiel1217 wrote:

      Alexcar3000 wrote: Well, only for the stats on early arcs if someone wants to make a Vs...also the actual God Tiers speed were calced based on travel speed, and if we know the differences in early DBZ with combat speed and travel speed, we may get an idea of how fast the God Tiers actually fight.

      Don't avoid the question... I'll deal with the Relativistic thing later...

      For now yes the MHS statement... again you do know that's not just for combat speed as it never implied that. It was just speed is general which is usually travel speed...

      Now it get contradicted later on with the snakeway feat. And the Relativistic feat won't help here. Combat speed doesn't effect travel speed...

      I agree with you if it's about travel speed, we never got good feats until super, but now is good to considered based on God Tier's calcs, which were based on travel speed, and if we know that combat speed >>> travel speed, then the actual combat speed of the God Tiers might be considerably faster, the difference between Hypersonic and Relativistic is huuuge, with this, we may have an idea of how fast the God Tiers fight.

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    • Alright I'll ask one final question...

      Do ya consider the "Faster than Lightning" statement to be only for combat speed...

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    • IIRC DB characters use huge amounts of Ki in "bursts" to make themselves much stronger and faster while not staying at that level over long periods of time (because that would waste Ki). That's way their combat speed >>> their travel speed and why their power "jumped" early on while the villains underestimated them.

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    • SchutzenDunkelZiel1217 wrote:
      Alright I'll ask one final question...

      Do ya consider the "Faster than Lightning" statement to be only for combat speed...

      Yeah, I doubt they surpassed Mach 10 in travel speed by even the sayian saga lol

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