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  • I think enough time has passed since the massive shitstorm from last month.

    This thead is meant to continue the disussion and eventually, the implementation of the upgrades discussed on these threads:

    http://vsbattles.wikia.com/wiki/Thread:1435301

    http://vsbattles.wikia.com/wiki/Thread:1433375



    The upgrades being discussed is 3-A for MANGA Yugi based on the movie DARK SIDE OF DIMENSIONS

    A summary of the feats can be found in my blog http://vsbattles.wikia.com/wiki/User_blog:RapidMotorcycle19/Yugioh_3-A_Prana

    -Resistance to existence erasure with the new duel disk

    -Obelisk being able to destroy a Multi Universal Dimension on his own.

    -Time Travel for Kaiba

    -Atem reversed Prana on his own as he returned, which has been shown consistently to be 3-A.

    And a overall upgrade for ANIME Yugi. (From High 3-A to 2-C) based on the Movie/Novel PYRAMID OF LIGHT and the finale of YU-GI-OH GX.

    -Pyramid of Light has Shining Dragon use its effects in real life, which scales to Infinite Obelisk and Knight of destiny.

    Infinite Obelisk is clear cut High 3-A, while Knight of destiny is either At least High 3-A or Low 2-C.

    -All Millenium Item users can create dark games, which make all monsters and their effects real, as shown in the Pyramid of Light movie and novel, the opponent of versus matches should be considered a monster.

    -Yugioh GX´s finale has the Phraoh´s deck create a separate timeline for Judai and Yugi to duel in, with stopped time.

    -Yugi´s deck has been stated to be stronger in Spirit to any other opponent Judai has faced, which includes Yubel, who merged 12 timelines into one.

    This time, i wont be as active as the other threads, since the discussion was so toxic it was almost dangerous to my health.

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    • I'll comment on this later as im out with family at the moment but I still disagree with this for the same reasons as last time.

      I'll list them if it's required.

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    • Ill just keep this open because i dont agree with you and i think the upgrades are indeed justified-

      This time, dont expect me to go on and on till the latest hours of the day repeating the same thing.

      Now, you forgot to respond to the last rebuttal from a month ago before the thread was closed. 

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    • https://youtu.be/sinmA25ROZI

      Anime Yugi has resistance to mind manipulation

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    • You also need to prove Yubel merged timelines, not planets. Yubel being 2-C would amp the main protagonists BIG time. I'll definitely follow this.

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    • I dont know a lot about GX, but i do remember Yubel being 2-C at one point in time.

      GX Yugi would have still created a different timeline to face Judai in, tho.

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    • GX Yugi still scales to Low 2-C yes. I'm just trying to see if Yubel has any more justification for being 2-C. It would scale to the Signers of 5D's, along with Z-ONE and such. Obviously not referring to the twelve dimensional statement.... No matter how temping it is to use. I'll check later. I remember a respect thread that I forgot to link before that had excellent arguments for Multi-Universal Yubel.

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    • Yubel being 2-C would make GX Finale Yugi scale to her (him?) or not?

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    • Yep. It would also make GX Yugi the strongest protagonist period by a ridiculous margin, even with the other protagonists of 5D's and Duel Monsters receiving a similar scaling method.

      Keep in mind that Yubel is weaker than Season 1 Yusei. Yusei's stardust , when bloodlusted, nearly killed a fusion of Judai + Yubel in one blow. Both are comparable to The Darkness physically, who was stated to be more powerful than anything prior , which would be 2-C via scaling to the Super Fusion God. Even fodder monsters were stated to have power comparable to the Big Bang and transcend space-time ... So tier 3 -2 Top-Tiers to God Tiers is not far fetched.

      No... It wouldn't wcale to ZEXAL or ARC-V.
      
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    • Wait. When did Yusei duel Judai?

      And wouldnt Judai scale to GX Yugi?

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    • No. Paradox manipulates Yusei's Stardust into fighting Judai. He loses horribly, and would've died in one blow if it wasn't for Neos blocking the attack.

      No... Judai explicitly states during their duel Yugi is above them, and shows fear dueling him just by feeling the pressure of his soul and spirit. Even during BBT, they stale Battle City Yugi is the strongest duelist, even after Yusei w/ The Full Crimson Dragon + Judai w/ Yubel were on screen. Paradox even shows more concern over the Pharoah than either, despite knowing what they are capable of. Konami even had S2 Yugi win against S5 Yusei who had Quasar in a script duel.

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    • @Rapid

      I assume your talking about this thread as the last one we were discussing this yes? If so, you should check it again. Because I was the last one to make a reply before a staff member closed it. 

      Anywho, I really have no opinion about the Yubel stuff, so i'll leave that out for everyone else to decide on for now at least. However, the reasons for my disagreement with Dark Side of Dimensions ratings are the same as last time. I'll sum them up: 

      1.) Resistance for the duel disks is incorrect. It's specifically for only Kaibas as his is the only one with the special capabilities of resisting the Planas power, no one elses. And his duel disk only resists the Plana's BFR, not erasure or else he wouldnt have been erased near the movie's end. 

      2.) Obelisk never destroyed a dimension thats that sized. It was at best city sized and going beyond that is using a pletora of assumptions.

      3.) Kaiba didnt time travel. He went to the Afterlife (it'd be a good cross-dimensional travel ability though, just not usuable for combat sadly). 

      4.) Atem never reversed the Plana. The destruction of the Dark Plana cube did via Diva being defeated.

      And even IF this is incorrect, its not consistent at all. Its one massively huge outlier on Atems part for being absolutely no where near this level prior to the movie and has no consistent power up or form of training to justify him being that strong. Doing this feat out of no where, casually at that, when being depicted as incredibly lower for the whole series he took part in is the textbook definition of an Outlier. 

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    • Well, as discussed before, Yugioh has some kind of relative durability.

      Not to mention stardust "killing" Judai is based on DM Rules. I think the only way to determine is someone is stronger than the other is by ditect duels.

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    • Gods.

      Seriously man, just give it up. All of this has been debunked before.

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    • It wasn't a duel. They were fighting spirit to spirit. The only time Paradox dueled officially was against the 3 Protagonists at once .

      Duel Monsters have relative durability ? Even when Judai was shown Post-Yubel fighting Duel Monsters and was even shown in S4 That an direct attack from The Darkness, which in the shadow game allows him to utilize his full power , only felt somewhat fatigued after being ripped from Yubel ? Sounds consistent enough to me IMO

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    • No, it wasnt debunked. 

      And I still very much disagree with the ratings for those reasonings. 

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    • >No i wasnt debunked! I debunked you!

      This is going to be a "fun" thread.

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    • The only thing i can say is that it is not allowed to upgrade characters from game mechanic stuff and Yubel greatest feat is only 5-A as the tier 2 stuff it was placed before was debunked.

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    • What are you talking about?

      Duel Monster Game Mechanics (effects) were used in real life and caused real reality warping, as shown in Pyramid of Light

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    • That reminds me. About the "real life effects".

      I still never got an answer to how effects being real equals tier 3 for some of these guys.

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    • You did, you just decided to ignore it.

      Dark Games makes Attack Points raw ap and can damage the other dueslist directly. (Joey vs Marik for example) But since the duelist's durability is bound by card game rules, they have a relative durability.

      Infinite Obelisk can reach infinite ATK and Knight of destiny cam surpass Infinite attack points.

      >inb4 why didnt Yugi kill Kaiba when he used Imfinite Obelisk duuurrrr

      Because one, not a dark game, and two, Yugi doesnt fucking want to kill kaiba in character.

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    • Not to mention fucking Shining drago used its effect to destroy Anubis in both the Movie and Novel like he was a monster bound by duel monsters rules IN REAL LIFE.

      Please. This is getting super fucking sad.

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    • https://youtu.be/WKQeIz3RIng

      Yugioh GX should get hax upgrades with Dark/Shadow charms.

      Alongside other skills and hax, it gives you Soul Manipulation, Dark gane cration and more.

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    • 1.) Calm down. There is no need to be throwing slurs around and after what happened before in previous threads, we should make a much better effort to remain civil. I am and so should you please. 

      2.) That doesnt answer my question. What in any part of what you just said relates to tier 3? Effects being real? Much much more than that will be needed. Or the infinte ATK stuff? The knight "surpassing" infinity is either still game mechanics or that is very big hyperbole. For Obelisk, im very inclined to say this is just endless stamina as nothing points otherwise. I don't see how infinite ATK means you are able to use 3-A power. 

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    • 1) Sorry man, but ive been thru this before, and most of the stuff ive said have been proven by multiple sources and even languages.


      2) Obelisk has an effect that literally gives him infinite attack points. Attack Points does not mean "endless stamina" no matter hlw "inclined" you are about it, ATK points have shown to be raw ap in Dark games like in Marik vs Joey.


      The effect literally is based on "Game Mechanics' (can you even call it a game mechanic when the mechanic is used in real life and in context of a fight? In that case, we should nuke the Beyblade and Touhou verses to hell.)

      The Knight literally created a loop of infinity to match the fivine serpent's and then added another attack on top of it. Its literally infinity vs Infinity+1.

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    • A bit unrelated, but shouldn't Yuya have his monsters powers (E.I. Timegazer rewind) since they're explicitly made real (albeit non-corporeal) via ARC tech?

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    • Since I feel this is important( Thank God I decided to bing-watch Yu-Gi-Oh! ) , I will mention this accordingly ...

      Capsule Monsters ( Which is directly canon ) : It is stated that Shadi created The Pyramid. Which apparently includes a pocket dimension that contains countless stars ( He was shown to alternate it all on a whim ) and a Alternate Universe known as Capsule Monsters. Also... The Millennium Puzle is described as Endless in size by Capsule Monster

      .Whelp .
      
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    • Those things not being proven in-verse isnt really my concern. Its how they translate to vs battle forms that concerns me. 

      Infinite ATK =/= Infinite stamina? Thing is, what actually proves this? There's no evidence that Infinite ATK means power as in an energy sense, and even if there is, having infinite energy is much more closer to having endless stamina than just having 3-A power. Otherwise, if this wasnt the case, then even characters like Andriods 16, 17 and 18 would have been each 3-A ever since the Andriod Saga, which definitely isnt true. And this is especially glaring if there are no actual universe feats being done to support this. 

      In addition, adding Infinity loops to each other doesnt mean its beyond infinity. The only way thats even remotely possible is if your Tier 0, which these guys obviously aren't. Its far more likely to either be another game mechanic like effect or flowerly hyperbole.

      Also, I dont know anything about Touhou, but Beyblade has zero game mechanic feats in it and as someone whos the main reason the verse is even on this site at all, I can assure you that its a major false equivalancy to compare it to Yu-Gi-Oh. 

      Plus, using Joey and Marik is...not a good example to help this get passed. Because neither are consistently deailing with anything beyond human tier attacks. Even with the benefit of the doubt, definitely not tier 3 ones. So if anything, using them just points more to this being another outlier than actually being legit. 

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    • @2nd Sounds good to me. But, aside from Shadi, would it scale to Yugi or other millenium item users?

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    • What are Spell Card rules in Touhou...?

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    • Attack, Kougeki in the Japanese version literally means to injure another person by using force.

      Do i really have to explain why the word ATTACK implies using FORCE to injure someone?

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    • They should all be at the same level of power yes. So it should scale to them regardless.

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    • Yeah, but that would be on a separate form from for Yugi or does it directly scale to DM (Anime) Yuugi?

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    • @Kukui

      Beyond infinity is at best uncountable infinity, not Tier 0

      Of course, that was Dub only in the first place

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    • @Seed

      Scans of this being stated would probably help. 

      Not denying it, but blindly going along with it without material isn't enough either. 

      @Megaboy

      If that is the case, then that helps prove even more of this being an outlier then. 

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    • Season4 is canom to Anime Yuugi.

      Manga canon is the manga + Dsod

      https://youtu.be/63yV90OmTRw (footage of the Knight of destiny)

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    • Footage of Obelisk with infinite ATK points.

      https://youtu.be/BKTcorgMlrs

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    • ... Agreeable . It was Capsule Monsters episodes 11 & 12 respectively. I recently watched it on Netflix. Now then... How should I go about having and providing scans for it ?

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    • Screenshot + Subs mate, it's bread and butter.

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    • Looks like I got some work to do later. Okay then.

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    • Yobobojojo wrote:
      @Kukui

      Beyond infinity is at best uncountable infinity, not Tier 0

      Of course, that was Dub only in the first place

      Noted now. 

      But I still currently stand by what I said before. 

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    • Yeah, I kinda agree with Kukui here

      Altho I would like a answer to the above question.

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    • What abive question?

      If Capsule scales to DM Yugi or another form?

      And, why do you agree with Kukui anyways?

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    • Yobobojojo wrote:
      A bit unrelated, but shouldn't Yuya have his monsters powers (E.I. Timegazer rewind) since they're explicitly made real (albeit non-corporeal) via ARC tech?

      This one.

      Also, I do agree, but I also believe possibly rtings are better in this case

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    • Confirmed upgrades: -Shadow Charms for Yudai, who literally won all of em. -Capsule Monsters form/upgrades Anime Yuugi, Pegasus and Marik to 4-A. (Scans still needed.)

      In debate (for some reason):

      High 3-A to 2-C for Anime Yuugi because of season 4, Pyramid of Light and GX

      3-A to Manga Yuugi because of Dsod

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    • 20180409 110202
      20180409 110218


      https://kissanime.ac/Anime/Yu-Gi-Oh-Capsule-Monsters.48097/Episode-011?id=54520


      Mr. Not a badguy steals the key to the realm Shadi created, Yuugi and pals tackle him and also fall into the star filled realm.


      4-C, 4-B or 4-A? But Tier 4 Yugioh is a thing now, and no one can possibly attempt to debunk this.

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    • @Megaboy... Thanks. 

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    • Well we remember the issue with pocket realms and stars etc. as that's come up before (or else we'd have 4-A Kaguya) and we need to see if its hax or actual AP.

      That said, I wouldn't be against this really so I can agree. Though wouldn't this be outlierish?

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    • I'm sure that it's consistent with Tier 4 Horakhty OvO

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    • >Anything above tier 10

      ISNT IT AN OUTLIER GUYS?!

      Kukui, i am sick of your obvious intention of going against every single damn upgrade for Yugioh.

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    • Calm down.

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    • Still top tier discussion I see.

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    • The scans dont lie.

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    • .... What is the matter with the discussion ?

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    • Well, right now, we are discussing a tier 4 feat that scales to anime yuugi.

      I posted scans and a direct link to the episode.

      But for the third thread in a roll, Kukui seems to have some untesoved bussiness with Yugioh being anything above tier 10, it happened with the Pyramid of Light feats, the Season 4 feats and the Dsod 3-A feats.

      He just comes in saying either "debunked" or "outlier" in every single uograde thread for Yugioh, if that isnt a sign of a personal vendetta i dunno what is.

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    • So, disagreeing with upgrades is personal vendetta now?

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    • On every single thread with the same argument (if you can call saying "i was NEVER debunked, you were!" And "seems outlierish" an argument) over and over for over three threads?

      Yeah.

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    • This is quite literally the first time he called a feat an outlier. The only other time was when arguing a hypothetical in this thread.

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    • Proof of that claim?

      I am quit esure he kept on going saying 3-A manga Yugi was an outlier in Dsod

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    • Proof? You mean proof of a negative?...

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    • Anyways, back to the topic at hand.

      Shadii confirmed for raw tier 4.

      The scans and episode are there.

      Good luck debunking that.

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    • Or maybe, just maybe, you keep putting out stats that are actually outlier and Kukui ends up having to call you on it, rather than him having a "personal vendetta".

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    • >Everything below Tier 10 is considered an outlier for Yugioh

      >Yugioh has plenty Tier 5 and 4 characters.

      Wew.

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    • Let me get this straight. Shadi, an extremely low tier character in comparison to nearly everyone with magic, has a tier 4 feat, literally millions of times higher than the top tier's tier 5 feat.

      @Matt that's ignoring the fact that we have some tier 2 characters.

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    • The 2nd Existential Seed wrote:
      You also need to prove Yubel merged timelines, not planets. Yubel being 2-C would amp the main protagonists BIG time. I'll definitely follow this.

      Haven't read the full thread yet but I can prove this as well as the existence of other universe - high universe level threats in GX.

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    • @Saikou Exept he hasnt posted any proof of his claims at all.

      Id like him to post proofs.

      @Data http://vsbattles.wikia.com/wiki/Thread:1433375?useskin=oasis

      Screenshot 20180409-121009

      Then you waddled away waddle waddle

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    • Please do post em Outverse

      Post em proofs

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    • @Mega, regarding your comment to Saikou, you can't prove a negative.

      As for the scan, I literally said in my comment that I was excluding the hypothetical. And is that a month old thread? Are you literally going through a month old thread to prove you were right when you insulted someone?

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    • >Shadii being LOW TIER

      You do not knwmow what you are remotely talking about.

      As a Millenium Iyem user he is literally at the same tier than Bakura, Yami and Marik.

      Please, watch/read Yugioh before commenting in a YGO thread

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    • Seriously, stop insulting people. This is getting really tiring to remind you of.

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    • I do not appreacciate your behaviour to an Admin and laughing, Megaboy. 

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    • Oh, i think i just proved KUKUI claimed an upgrade was an outlier just like in this very thread.

      I just find it amusing that he claims that MANGA millenium items being 3-A an outlier by comparing it to the Anime Millenium Items. Specially when Prana was shown time and time again to be on that tier.

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    • (Single) Millenium Item Users <<<<<<<<<< Egyptian Gods < Zorc

      Yeah, in comparison to everyone with magic, he is low tier. Especially when you consider some of the items are more hax than AP based. (Pegasus for example) Actually, since when did the Items even use direct attacks even higher than tier 9?

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    • The Everlasting wrote: Seriously, stop insulting people. This is getting really tiring to remind you of.

      What did I just say?

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    • Zorc was literally created as a result of the Millenium items.

      Shadii being weaker than Pegasus? Come on.

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    • 1. What? No. He was born out of the darkness of human hearts.

      2. Never said that? I used him as an example that the items aren't even ap based.

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    • Occam Razor also dictates that Yubel, which was one of the main pillars of the tier 2 stuff for GX got downgraded to 5-A might invalidates other feats.

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    • You know, this whole debacle makes me suspect that at least something of what the Pro-Upgrade people are saying could be true, but it is so buried under ad-hominens, insults, fallacies, poor argumentation skill and poorer still presentation that it all muddles together and becomes meaningless.

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    • Lets be honest here.

      If you consider just saying outlier to literally any upgrade or feat without proof of such, it shoulsnt really be counted as a argument.

      Can we agree on that?

      He just say "sounds outlierish" without any reasoning why.

      And in the screencap i did, his reasoninng for 3-A Yugi being an outlier is 'has not done 3-A stuff before". I guess Madokami, SSG Goku and pretty much anyone that didnt start tier 2 should be downgraddd now.

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    • @Matt I think we accepted some parts of the pro-upgrade actually, mostly the abilities tho.

      Ironically enough this discussion should have been banned given how often it gets brought up and leads to issues like months ago.

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    • Megaboy Prime wrote:
      Please do post em Outverse

      Post em proofs

      100% will do, I should've specified that I need a day, maybe two to compile the screens into a several images and label them with episode numbers. I've got pretty much all of the screens I'm going to use but I never finished sorting through them when I started a while back in a diff yugioh thread

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    • @mega I think he was saying outlier since the feat is literally millions of times higher than the top tier's.

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    • Can we at least upgrade GX Anime Yugi to Baseline Low 2-C by creating a timeline?

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    • SomebodyData wrote:
      @mega I think he was saying outlier since the feat is literally millions of times higher than the top tier's.

      It's a 21 tiers jump increase for the manga characters and for 11/12 the anime ones. I also disagree for Yugi being phisically upgraded to tier 2 in any way.

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    • Yugi's deck literally created a different timeline for him to duel Judai and even stopped time.

      Also, id like to quote Dark on "I also disagree for Yugi being phisically upgraded to tier 2 in any way."

      Any way implies youd disagree even if there was a lot of evidence against that mindset.

      I dont think you are fit to discuss upgrades on any verse if you think like that.

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    • And i don't think you will get the upgrades if you continue like this, i said phisically and the feat you said is not a phisical one. Any way is because there are no other tier 2 ones for his phisical stats, only hax.

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    • Screenshot 20180409-124803

      Couldnt find a english sub but, i think it translates to "this is a special place for just yugi and me"

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    • I've... Been gone for just a few moments. I apologize if i'm part of the problem in advance.

      @Dark I'm honestly just as surprised Dark ... I'm just supplying feats honestly TBQH that weren't shown earlier to be analyzed accordingly .  Also worth noting the tier 5 feats were ridiculously casual... Just saiyan .  Also Dark GX stuff is purely hax based. If anything, it's his deck that is Low 2-C rather than him physically.


      @Outerversal If you believe you can, please do. 

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    • Bump

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    • Reading through this now, and I apologize if I caused any issues, but there are still a lot of problems with this. 

      First regarding Shadi. Just for sake of curiosity, a statement that actuallly says he created it or something that proves it would be helpful (note: don't confuse this with me disagreeing). Secondly, assuming Shadi definitely created it, we still need to determine if this is even an AP feat or a hax-type feat done by an ability. Because for all we know, Shadi can simply doing this with tier 4 level hax while still being drastically below it, which seems to be the case. And that leads me back to why I said "its outlierish". Because Shadi has definitely not consistently dealt with power/attacks that are anywhere remotely close to this kind of rating. In fact, since DSoD is a topic here, we seem to be forgetting the fact that Shadi was curb stomped and killed by Kid Bakura, literally seconds after Bakura was possessed by the Millenium Ring. Unless these guys since the very beginning of the series are suddenly tier 4, its outlierish. To a very high extent. 

      Second, we are under a conception that just because a feat is an actual feat, it means it can't ever be an outlier. That isn't true in the slightest. Because if legit feats meant we throw outliers out the window, then outliers including Roshi being 5-C, Kaguya Otsutsuki being 4-A and 3-A Kirby wouldnt be outliers and would have been on this site for a very long time now. It's not just a matter of it being a feat. It needs to be consistent and not just a random ass-pull. 

      Third, SSG Goku is not a good example to explain 3-A Atem isn't an outlier. Its an incredibly big false equilvalancy.

      In Dragon balls case, the reason SSG Goku being 3-A isnt an outlier is because its a new form Goku obtained that gives him powers and strengths far beyond any form he has had prior to Super/BoG. It's a new form with a new power. It's in its own league compared to former forms. I can gurantee you nearly 100% that if, lets say, SJJ3 Goku was the one who pulled off those feats when fighting Beerus, it'd be an outlier without Super Saiyan God coming into the picture. 

      Atem however is a different story. Unlike Goku, Atem in DSoD gets none of what Goku gets. Atem doesnt train. Atem doesnt gain a new form. He doesn't even get a power amp. He doesnt get anything. Literally, he only shows up for like 30 seconds out of no where to beat Diva and leaves. This is the very defintion of an ass-pull feat done randomly out of no-where with nothing in-verse that even explains it and a supposed rating that goes infinitely beyond anything Atem or anyone in the series has done. That is why im staying with this being a 100% outlier, even if the feat here in question is one of his own doing. 

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    • Can I re-mention my previous point about ARC-V since what we decide there may help us in this disscussion as well.

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    • ProfessorKukui4Life wrote:

      Shadi was curb stomped and killed by Kid Bakura, literally seconds after Bakura was possessed by the Millenium Ring. Unless these guys since the very beginning of the series are suddenly tier 4, its outlierish. To a very high extent. 

      Bakura didn't kill him, Zorc did. That was the entire purpose of bringing in Yami Bakura for that scene.

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    • @Arigarmy

      Even so, that wouldnt change the fact that Shadi was still killed off very easily by power that isn't remotely close to tier 4 from the very beginning. It would still make the notion of Shadi being tier 4, by himself, very outlierish.

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    • "being tier 4, by himself, very outlierish."

      Is this even a debate anymore?

      >Killed by Kid Bakura means Shadii got "curb stomped".

      Did you forget that bakura had the millenium ring and thus, is considered comparable to all Millenium Item users? And its not like he killed him by punching him, it was literally dark magic.

      AND THIS IS ALL DARK SIDE OF DIMENSIONS, WHICH IS NOT CANON TO ANIMEVERSE.

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    • @Mega

      Again, calm down please.

      First, im honestly going to ask. What makes DSoD non-canon to the anime when it strictly showcases events after the end of the anime (pre-GX)?

      Secondly, yes if its being claimed Shadi by himself is tier 4, when thats NEVER been established any where in-series except Capsule Monsters, then its very outlierish. Because then he'd literally be far above both the Egyptian Gods and Zorc. from the start, unless its being assumed that these guys are all at Tier 4 from the start, which is completely absurd.

      Third, even with the benefit of the doubt, this is sounding much more to be hax than actual AP, especially if its being done through the likes of magic than anything else.

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    • Dsod is meant to be a continuation of the Manga by the author. Pegasus isnt alive after Duelist Kingdom, so GX and Pyramid of Light are 100% not canon to the manga.

      Why are you assuming that the Season 5 "planet level" feats for the Egyptian Gods and Zorc are somehow "first" to the Season 1.5 Shadii feats? The god cards where stated to be able to destroy the world in the anime mulyiple times before season 5, id like to reminf you that assumimng they are "just" planet level is not really fair.

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    • For the former, how does GX and PoL being non canon to the manga mean DSoD is non-canon to the anime?

      As for the latter, when you say "destroy the world" your talking about stuff that Ishizu said yes? If so, that goes even more in my favor. By "destroying the world" its very obviously refering to the planet and only planet since its stated only 1 of the gods on their own are able to destroy millions of armies and with all 3, the world. There's absolutely nothing from this that even hints at "world" meaning universe. While "world" can mean either, evidence is needed to prove its on the universal end than the planetary end.

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    • DSOD is an epilogue to the manga specifically. There's too many inconsistencies with DSOD, the manga, and GX to imply that they're even remotely capable of having the movie simultaneously be canon to two different mediums.

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    • Indeed.

      Dsod is a continuation to the MANGA, while GX, Pyramid and BBT are continuations to the ANIME.

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    • Pyramid was just a 4Kids thing, I'd honestly push that to some Capsule Monsters tier stuff, but you're not me so whatever floats the majority boat.

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    • Last thread we agreed that the Pyramid of Light Novel was canon.

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    • And capsule monsters is also a thing just for the anime.

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    • Meant the movie specifically. Capsule Monsters is weird though, I don't recall it ever mentioning DM at all.

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    • It's suppose to be before Season 5 and after Season 4.

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    • "Set before the end of the second Yu-Gi-Oh! anime series (Yu-Gi-Oh: Duel Monsters)—between the Grand Championship and Dawn of the Duel"

      Or by this statement it'd be in the middle of Season 5. Also how the hell did Alexander get the ring?

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    • Okay. Either or then. Who knows how he got it ? 

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    • we dont thats exactly the problem

      the most major PIS ive seen in eons

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    • You might wanna hold off on the "real life effects" part, since I'm likely making a thread to address that

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    • Yeah... I have NO idea how he got the Millennium Ring way back then, considering Good Alexander references the fact Atem reigned at the exact same time Alexander reigned. Meaning , Bakura was still around. Meaning .... He had no reason to have the Ring.

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    • Also.. Lookking through a few feats, I found quite  a few which i shall tell, but show evidence and or scaling for at a later time [ I'll edit this w/ scans and more feats when i acrtually document them later ] : :

      I found a tier 4 one. The Orichalcos Dragon... The one that in Season 4 the Egyptian Gods defeat ? Well... It literally ate the Sun . This scales directly to Bakura and Zorc, since they easily dealt with Dartz and this Dragon.

      I also found a feat from 5D's God-Tiers that may be Tier 2... But i need to analyze it carefully to see it's legitimacy . It would scale to Duel Monsters as well, but not GX, because Judai is blatantly far weaker than Yusei.

      BTW, If a Realm has limitless souls, and someone destroys it... Is that quantifiable to show how big the  realm is ?

      Also... This feat for a "fodder" ... So even if tier 5 isn't accepted... I'm certain this should be:

      " Whenever Swordmaster Gearfried uses his sword ,  the world shakes " ( Yugioh Duel Monsters episode 162 ) 

      Not really. They are just trying to see which is more... Consistent. I completely understand. Which is why I'm trying to get as much scans as possible to prove otherwise. Anyways... Let's get started.

      - Let me re-do Yubel... At least until the other dude comes back with more proof Yubel is tier 2. Super Fusion God was a hax that allowed Yubelto control ( not rule ) the Universe with it's power .  The Universe was stated to have been split into the Twelve Dimensions twice. I also believe she states here she means to destroy the Universe along with the Twelve Dimensions, as she says she will "destroy everything ", because she mentions the Universe & The Twelve Universes.

      - A fodder monster is stated to have beenfused from the effects of the Big Bang . And before you guys state he isn't seen in the anime... Here .

      - Great Leviathan ate the Sun ( Episode 147 and 174 of Yu-Gi-Oh! Duel Monsters ). Even if you refuse this, there IS a calc that the G.L has extremely casual  moon level feat , which scales to the Top and God Tiers. 

      Fodder Monsters Card Descriptions ( Likely can be used to scale monsters ):

      - A fodder monster is stated to have beenfused from the effects of the Big Bang . And before you guys state he isn't seen in the anime... Here .

      - fodder monsters stated to be queen of galaxies and mistress of the stars .

      - A fodder card can flood the entire world .

      -A fodder monster, each step can shake the earth .

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    • Indeed Anyone who says Yugioh is below tier 4 is pretty much downplayin

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    • Will say this for now.

      -If that sun feat is legit I dont think it'll be an issue. But I'll see what Somebody and Dark have to say about it.

      -Mention this 5D's god tier feat please?

      -A realm of souls, while limitless, doesn't sound like its quantifiable. More so just really good soul destruction if nothing else.

      -I have a very hard time believing that text from Swordmaster Gearster is legit. Being honest, I'm almost 100% sure the card texts are just flowerly hyperbole and don't actually reflect on the real version of the monsters. Expdia and the Egyptian Gods vs Zorc is a perfect example of this. I'll wait and see what others say on this note.

      But just in case it does, what is his feat referring to? Planet or Universe?

      -I'll actually ask this. Regarding the tweleve dimensions, if they are split off from just a single universe, then why are each of the dimensions being assumed to be universes on their own? Splitting a planet in 2 wont give you 2 full sized planets. It'd either be huge moons or smaller scale planets. Yubel being this tier via hax is no problem with me, but the feat itself I have issues with. Because controlling dimensions that are even smaller than 1 universe doesn't sound 2-C to me.

      -For Twin-headed dragon, same thing as for Swordmaster Geartser. Until I hear otherwise, this text sounds like incredible hyperbole, not to mention it would be a massive outlier in itself since even the god cards dont have feats anywhere near this. And if its really fodder, then this would suddenly effect notable monsters like Blue Eyes or Dark Magician, which them being tier 2 at this point is completely absurd.

      -G.L.'s casual moon feat I have no problems with. And unlike above it fits with the God cards and Zorcs tier 5 feats so no outlier.

      -Queen of galaxies and stars doesnt mean anything really. Just means they rule them, not have the actual power to destroy them. Unless Namek Saga Frieza is 3-A now for once ruiling the universe?

      -Flooding the world, if text is legit, I have no issues since it doesnt invalidate higher tier ratings.

      -Destroying the earth with each step? Im gonna have to call that as flowerly text as well.

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    • Hmm... This may take a bit. Let me remind all of you I have no side on whether or not these are accepted. I am just taking every precaution and analyzing everything here to be sure nothing is missed :

      - Ok.

      - Meklord destroys one of the alternate timelines. 

      - There's also the inside of the Millennium Puzzle stated a "Never-Ending" Pocket Reality

      - We've accepted card lore though on this very site. Here is a example .

      - Planet until otherwise confirmed. I haven't watched the episode where the monster is summoned, so it could very well be Universe. If it is... Another tier 4 feat.

      - We are unsure of the nature of these..."Universes". It could be similar to what Zarc did in Arc-V. Separating the Universe into 4 Timelines. It could be the splitting was the universe into 7 Universes... But that is speculation. I believe IMO we sort of jumped the gun a little  bit saying they are only "Planets" when they weren't even hinted to be such. Being a Parallel World to Earth doesn't automatically mean you are a Planet. Same thing w/ Barian and Astral World. 

      -  Same with th 5th blank

      - Nice.

      - I see.. OK.

      - Okay then.

      - Same with the above.

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    • I haven't seen the feats yet but it should probably be mentioned that while card lore is considered as their "stories", in anime-verse / main canon its just something Pegasus makes up. So it wouldn't be considered for the anime-verse / main canon.

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    • BTW, where does Higher dimensional Zexal come from?

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    • Are we talking about the time when one of the cards was named after a hyperplane? @DMB

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    • SomebodyData wrote: I haven't seen the feats yet but it should probably be mentioned that while card lore is considered as their "stories", in anime-verse / main canon its just something Pegasus makes up. So it wouldn't be considered for the anime-verse / main canon.

      If this is true, then yeah I completely disagree with any card-lore type feats.

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    • You mostly disagree with all feats, Kukui. Anyways. The confirmed timeline for both ankme and manga is:

      Anime - Season 0, Duel Monsters, GX, Capsule Monsters, BBT and Pyramid.

      Manga - Yu-Gi-Oh - R and Dsod.

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    • Season 0 is definitely not canon to the anime. When it was last brought up there was literally no proof towards its canonicity.

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    • Uh..., the card lore is explicitly part of the duel moster spirit world tho.

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    • Season 0 and the Black Dragon Movie are in the same timeline, but separated from the other ones [Manga and Anime Duel Monsters].

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    • @Yobo Which spirit world are we talking about @Yobo? (Season 4 and 5D's have two distinct ones)

      That said, I don't think either of them had accepted the lore. 

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    • DMB 1 wrote:
      BTW, where does Higher dimensional Zexal come from?

      Ranking up was stated to be going up a plane of existence, but it was denied due to going up a plane being able to be interpreted as going to a different dimension

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    • Its funny to see almoat no one in this thread has seen Yugioh GX at all.

      The Spirit world is literally the duel monsters card lore, and Jaden can literally interact and destroy em.

      And Yubel Jaden has resistance to mind manipulation on his own. https://youtu.be/YINoSYkQMMc

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    • SomebodyData wrote:
      @Yobo Which spirit world are we talking about @Yobo? (Season 4 and 5D's have two distinct ones)

      That said, I don't think either of them had accepted the lore. 

      5d's and GX world, which I do believe did have the lore

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    • I see, if so, go ahead, what part of the lore was used btw?

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    • Honest (the card) literally took an human form and started brainwashing his way into existwnce.

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    • ok, I'm asking lore, not if the monster's spirit became physical and took human form. (Honest doesn't even have a lore I believe and definitely lacks a flavor text)

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    • Well he does have one in YGO GX.

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    • That's... not the card lore...

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    • Going "up" explicitly means transcending , We've used it in that sense quite a few times. It's not going to another dimension when they never refer to dimensions in ZEXAL in any other way other than a higher plane of reality . Wording + Intent matters... But i'm not bringing that up again.

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    • Do you guys need help in explaining what card lore actually is?

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    • Id like an explanation on how the tier 4 feats havent been implemented already instead.

      Then, we can move on to thw tier 3 ones.

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    • Because at the very least most of these tier 4 feats are very likely outliers and are being discussed as such. 

      Matter of fact that reminds me. 

      @Somebody Data and @Dark649

      Any issues with the Great Leviathan tier 4 feat of eating the sun? Would this be legit or do you guys think its also an outlier? 

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    • I hope you dont mean the divine serpent of Season 4.

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    • Well that I included but im going to wait and see what Somebody or Dark have to say about it first. 

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    • And, everything is an outlier to you.

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    • Well, if its not actually consistent and are just random out of the ordinary feats, yes they'll be outliers. 

      It's like what I said above. Just because a feat is an actual feat doesnt mean outliers cannot ever apply to them and get thrown out. Otherwise, a lot of characters here would have been given upgrades for a while now. 

      Like 5-C Roshi, 4-A Kaguya Otsutsuki, or 3-A Kibryverse. The latter of which has a much bigger amount of stuff going for them than Yugioh and is still only an outlier to this day. 

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    • You know, it is funny you consider all of the feats above tier 5 to be random out of the ordinary.

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    • Just list how many tier 4 feats there are and list how many tier 5. Then we can see the difference. With data.

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    • Because maybe they actually are out of the ordinary? That the feats being mentioned are very inconsistent with ratings from much stronger characters, dont fit at all, and for some, are just hyperbole? 

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    • Specially when stuff like High 3-A Obelisk is anything but inconsistent.

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    • High 3-A Obelisk is very very un-supported in itself as I called out above. Regarding the Infinite ATK points not equaling tier 3 power in the slightest. 

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    • Thats funny.

      I am quite sure Season 4 and Joey vs Marik had already proven that point, as i have shown earlier in the thread.

      Specially since Obelisk's effect has been 100% consistent in the animeverse.

      But, you already knew that, didnt you? Or, just pretend not to?

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    • ProfessorKukui4Life wrote:
      Those things not being proven in-verse isnt really my concern. Its how they translate to vs battle forms that concerns me. 

      Infinite ATK =/= Infinite stamina? Thing is, what actually proves this? There's no evidence that Infinite ATK means power as in an energy sense, and even if there is, having infinite energy is much more closer to having endless stamina than just having 3-A power. Otherwise, if this wasnt the case, then even characters like Andriods 16, 17 and 18 would have been each 3-A ever since the Andriod Saga, which definitely isnt true. And this is especially glaring if there are no actual universe feats being done to support this. 

      In addition, adding Infinity loops to each other doesnt mean its beyond infinity. The only way thats even remotely possible is if your Tier 0, which these guys obviously aren't. Its far more likely to either be another game mechanic like effect or flowerly hyperbole.

      Also, I dont know anything about Touhou, but Beyblade has zero game mechanic feats in it and as someone whos the main reason the verse is even on this site at all, I can assure you that its a major false equivalancy to compare it to Yu-Gi-Oh. 

      Plus, using Joey and Marik is...not a good example to help this get passed. Because neither are consistently deailing with anything beyond human tier attacks. Even with the benefit of the doubt, definitely not tier 3 ones. So if anything, using them just points more to this being another outlier than actually being legit. 

      Requoting what I stated above earlier in the thread about it. 

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    • Why requote it when it has already been confirmed as such in my previous posts?

      Joey vs Marik and season 4 are still going to contradict your headcanon.

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    • Its not headcanon when the latter have no feats of surviving attacks that are even beyond human tier, let alone tier 3. Thats one of the things that makes this very outliersh for it being incredibly inconsistent. 

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    • Sorry, but ill leave this for now.

      These strawmans are legit damaging my health.

      See ya tomorrow.

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    • That is your choice and that is fine, but if there's no actual counter to these feats being outliers, im not going to agree with them. That is my stance here. 

      Also, as someone honestly trying to keep things civil from what happened in the last threads, as you should too please, we need to keep the "strawman" and "headcanon" cards out of this discussion. We don't need a repeat of the Bleach revisions and how they went down. We are better than this and im sure this time we can all have a calm, nice civil discussion even if we disagree on stuff. 

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    • Your stance has been debunked earlier in the thread.

      But hey, its your choice to realize that. I cannot force you to, as much as id like to.

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    • It'd be nice if you could quote where the debunks are.

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    • Easy.


      Marik vs Joey and Season 4. Its easy to know this, if you watched Yugioh.

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    • Seriously, can both of you cool it? There's no need for this immediately after you resolved to stop.

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    • Seriously this fight between you two has tired me as well.

      But alas, i must say i do agree with the upgrades, they seem to have at least some kind of proof behind em.

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    • so capsule monsters is finally being recognized? there are physical feats in there

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    • Yeah, they would apply to Anime Yugi.

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    • RapidMotorcycle19 wrote: Easy.


      Marik vs Joey and Season 4. Its easy to know this, if you watched Yugioh.

      I already countered this though by saying these 2 are part of the reason for making this an outlier. Plus mentioning the material that was already talked about above isnt debunking the notion of this being an outlier.

      @Yobo

      Read my previous reply please. Im being 100% civil here and am trying my best to keep it like that and not have it turn into last time. I disagree with him and his arguments but that doesnt mean im going directly at him. Im not insulting or being snarkish at all.

      EDIT: Not to mention, recalling one instance of something that, even if it could, help support a rating for characters, doesn't at all disprove the notion of the rating being an outlier. A verse can have a whole pletora of stuff in their favor and they'll still count as Outliers.

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    • >Outlier

      Throwing that strawman around again.

      Kukui, do you have anything of value to add to the discussion or will this just go on and on like last time?

      It has already been debunked by the consistency of the feats.

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    • Sometimes things just are outliers. I don't see anything consistent here with what you're trying to push for.

      I agree with Kukui.

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    • What consistency though? No one even brought other higher tier feats to suggest that, let alone brought forth any actual reason to why it isn't an outlier.

      And if Somebody and Dark still agree with me, now with Ever, that'll make 3 staff members who reject this so far.

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    • >STILL pushing the "more people agree with me" thing as some kind of validation.

      Thats a pretty sad argument. I find it funny that you use that when last thread people supported me and you just stopped saying that.


      Kukui, you have no evidence. And no amount of "supporters" will change that any time soon


      Infinite Obelisk has never changed its effect in the animverse, and thus, it is consistent.

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    • except outliers exist for a reason. That's like saying superman should be multiversal in post crisis when he has not only lower ends like bullet or building but he is mostly consistent in tier 4 range....

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    • >And no amount of "supporters" will change that any time soon

      It does on this site.

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    • When its staff members taking sides, who are the ones who approve/reject upgrades for any verse here in the first place, it is very valid. It matters a whole lot actually. Not saying non-staff's opinions dont matter, but if enough staff agree/disagree with ratings, thats the deciding factor. 

      And the problem here though is I don't need to prove this is an outlier. Its your job to prove it ISN'T an outlier. Thats how this works for every stat revision thread here. Your side are the ones claiming these ratings are consistent, so the burden of proof is on you to provide that. 

      Its fine if Obelisks effects dont change, that isnt my issue with it. The issue is the assumption that Infinite ATK points suddenly goes to equaling tier 3, which I detailed out already. 

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    • Ones ? I'm just providing scans. I never implied i was on either side.

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    • What the hell happened here.

      One. stop trying to point to 2nd, Kukui.

      Two. Post scans of your claims

      Three. Any news on the tier 2 feats from GX? Or are those oitliers too?

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    • Four.

      I think it has alrrady been proven that atk points scale directly to ap.


      In your perfect world, Yugioh is tier 10, isnt it? Because, i find amusing this desperate attempt of downgrading almost 6 different feats because they are "outliers" in your head.

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    • RapidMotorcycle19 wrote:
      I think it has alrrady been proven that atk points scale directly to ap.
      1436757540296
      There's an entire big thread made years ago about why we don't do that.
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    • @Rapid

      Im sorry, but no. If enough staff disagree with this, then its not getting accepted unless you make a far better convincing argument to stop that.

      Also, re-read my previous reply please. I don't have to provide any scans at all for proving this is an outlier. Its the opposite. Its your job to prove that this ISNT an outlier. Its like I said already. This is how it goes for any stat revision thread here and Yugioh is no different. The opposition, you guys, are the ones claiming this is no outlier and that it is consistent, so the burden of proof is on you to prove it. If you cant give a convincing argument for why this isnt an outlier, then its an outlier. Simple as that.

      Next, 6 different feats, some of which have issues within themselves, wont stop them from being outliers. Its like what Ever said. Some things just are outliers and look at verses like Kirby. They have much more stuff going for them than Yugioh does and we still treat them as nothing but outliers to this day. If just 6 things were enough to disprove that, then this wouldnt be the case.

      Finally, Im almost 100% sure that no one here has proven Infinite ATK points are the same as AP, as in an energy sense, and even if that was the case, infinite energy isnt tier 3 AP as that is easily covered by just infinite stamina. If infinte energy meant tier 3, then guys like Andriods 16, 17 and 18 wouldve been 3-A since DB's Andriod saga, which is absurd. This is especially glaring if there is no universal material to support this notion. In fact, theres more anti-feats here than non anti ones given Joey and Marik are involved in this, as claimed above, and both have never consistently shrugged off anything above human tier attacks. If nothing else, definitely not tier 3 ones. It just supports this being an outlier even more. Plus what Arigarmy said.

      I dont have any "perfect world" where Yugioh is that weak. If I find reasons to believe there are flaws in the verse being as strong as you want it to be, then I am going to call it out instead of just blindily going along with it.

      I say this not out of disrespect still, but a matter of evaluating material that I find issues with. Nothing more.

      P.S.- Just a heads up, but at the moment I am very sick due to something that is spreading around where I live, so if I dont reply as much as I have been, this is why.

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    • Monster Reborn

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    • 3-A YGO has already beem proven not an outlier time and time again.

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    • Proven by what though? 

      Not one piece of evidence or argument on why it isnt an outlier has been brought up and the little stuff thats been brought up, like the Infinite ATK points, was countered time and time again more than once. 

      If it was that easily proven as you claim it is, then quoting where this evidence is would be helpful. Otherwise I very much doubt anything happening just because its claimed not an outlier. 

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    • Yare yare.

      I think Rapid has already posted enough scans and i have posted enough direct feats and evidence.

      Its not my fault you believe your headcanon can suddenly break the rules stated on the show.

      Sad!

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    • >Scans and evidence

      Okay good, but where? Where are they? That is my question.

      >Head canon

      So claiming feats as Outliers now, which is what 99% of this site does in stat revisions, is headcanon?

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    • Megaboy Prime wrote:
      [snip]

      3/4 of these sentences are just provocative. You didn't need to use any of it.

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    • lol @ "yare yare"

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    • Okay, what the hell happened here.

      @Prime

      Calm down, being this aggresive will just give em an excuse to "debunk" ya.



      @Kukui

      Not again, why are you intentionally ignoring evidence?



      My blog, the Joey vs Marik fight, All of Season 4, causing envioremental (aka raw fucking strenght) damage in Joey vs Valon and the multiple scans ive provided over the multiple threads ive debated you in.

      And before you disregard this for the who knows what time, lemme post a new link for ya.

      https://youtu.be/_sX_3BVpv-Y?t=12m18s

      And before you even attempt calcing the raw AP of this blast, know that both of Yugi´s feats are about reaching infinite atk points, and thus, every value you can possibly force upon us is instantly increased to high 3-A by math alone.

      AND before you even attempt to say it is an outlier, this is consistent between various Season 4 duels.

      https://youtu.be/_sX_3BVpv-Y?t=13m13s (Same duel, by the way)



      Season 4, of course, scales to Anime Yugi.

      Will you attempt to "debunk" the anime now?

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    • @Rapid

      The "debunk ya" sarcasm part was also unnecessary here. Remember, you also need to make an effort to remain civil here as well like myself and everyone else. We don't want what happened last time to happen again im sure.

      Anywho, im not the one ignoring evidence. Problem here is your the one lacking in presenting it. The burden of proof is on your side. Only Mentioning stuff like "Joey vs Marik" without actually presenting scans or a type of evidence from it wont go anywhere.

      >Your blog

      The same blog, that was already addressed for more than the past 2 yugioh threads, and only talks about DSoD? I dont think its making a difference. In addition, the blog has nothing to with disproving this as an outlier.

      >All of season 4

      Again, this is really not evidence. At all. What parts of season 4? You cant just mention a season and not post anything from it to help support your argument. Anyone can do that for any other verse and it changes nothing.

      >Environmental damage

      Thats not tier 3, unless somehow this fight your talking about is suddenly destroying the likes of galaxies, which without showings brought here, I seriously doubt.

      >Multiple scans in multiple threads.

      Okay thats good. Then it should be no problem at all for you to bring those scans here. Its not mine or anyones jobs here to look for them. Its your job to bring them here or nothing is happening.

      >1st link

      Good that a link is posted. But I dont even need to look at this vid to say this is not tier 3. At all. High 3-A doesnt work like that. In fact, not even 3-A works like this. First off, I already addressed the Infinite ATK point stuff more than 5 times in this thread alone. There is absolutely no proof that ATK points in Yugioh equal power in actual energy/strength sense. Theres none. And Arigarmy above literally confirmed us having a detailed thread on why we dont accept ATK points equalling that. Second, even if given the benefit of the doubt and it does mean energy, if there is absolutely no implied or even hinted universal material to support it (and there isnt otherwise you wouldnt mention "calcing"), then it wont, isn't, and will never be tier 3. Infinite energy by itself is just infinite energy and can easily be placed under just endless stamina. Because if endless energy was enough to be 3-A, then again, Andriods 16, 17 and 18 from Dragonball would have each been 3-A since the Andriod Saga. And we dont do that for obvious reasons. Not just them too. As another example, take Victini from pokemon. Victini is a pokemon that is able to literally create and store infinite energy within itself. Yet he isnt 3-A. Hes only tier 6-5 at best. If infinite power by itself was enough for tier 3, we'd have 3-A to High 3-A pokemon already. We cant and dont judge "infinite energy" material by itself as 3-A or tier 3 if there is no material of any kind to support it being that tier. We can only judge it by what it either actually destroys or what a calc can give it through math. So in other words, if it is a 6-B feat for example, its a 6-B feat no matter which way you slice it. Or if a calc gives it a 5-C yield, the feat is 5-C.

      >Consistent

      Claiming its consistent and then linking the exact same duel isnt really...well...consistent. Again, if you claim the season has a various amount of duels that prove its consistent, then prove these duels exist by posting them here. Taking your word for it just like that is not enough. If theres no evidence of these duels being consistent, then it isnt and nothing will change. And even then, like Ever said already, somethings are just outliers through and through. A number of duels wont neccesarily make this not an outlier.

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    • Woah, youve just shown the entire thread that you didnt read his post.

      The point of the links is that any damage done with any number of atk points is that if one value is elevated to infinity, the other should too.

      It doent matter if Joey's attack was made with 2000 aatk if Obelisk can raise that variable literally to infinity.

      Of course you were not going to see anything tier 3 on those links.

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    • But again though, that's why I said I don't need to look at the vid to already say what I said.

      Not one thing from that is tier 3. Whatever can be explained for that gets covered by what I said in my previous reply. Tier 3 does NOT work like that.

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    • aka. It doesnt matter if you can only break a rock in two with 8000 atk if Infinite ATK raises each value to high 3-A by the basic laws of math alone.

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    • Jeane de Arc from the Puella Magi verse was upgraded to High 3-A based on her inverse stats.

      Jojo has been scaled by inverse stats since the start of time.

      Literal infinity of something that caused ANY sort of damage raised it to literal infinity, aka High 3-A.


      Its over.

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    • Megaboy Prime wrote: aka. It doesnt matter if you can only break a rock in two with 8000 atk if Infinite ATK raises each value to high 3-A by the basic laws of math alone.

      This also shows your not reading my reply as ive said and explained 3 times already. Please re-read. Using ATKs as justification for this is flat out flawed and outlierish unless a really good explanation covers this.

      >Jojo and Jeane de arc

      I dont know those verses but im almost 100% sure either they are getting the same treatment as Yugioh or they have different justifcations. Making them, again, major false equivalncies.

      Unlees you make a far better convincing argument, to get staff to accept your arguments and the upgrades, this discussion isnt over.

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    • >I dont know these verses >making false equivalences

      If you do not know the verses, then how the hell did you conclude it is a false equivalence? Do some research before accusing someone of presenting false or incorrect arguments.


      Most stats on Jojoverse and PuellaMagiversse are made out of the charts in their manga, which rank various stats on a scale from D to A. What the hell os the difference between literally scaling someone as ifinite on a chart compared to a literal numerification of infinity? None imo.


      The thing is, Joey vs Varon caused SOME raw AP. Wathever that amount is, it is increased by infinity by basic mathemathics.

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    • This reminds me that Asriel is 2-A because he has infinite AP and Durability according to game stats, which apparently are canon.

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    • Asriel is already 2-A, and as far as i know, stats in undertale are legit canon elements.

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    • I mean, I disagree with scaling the monster's Attack and Defence stats to their AP and Durability, because there are monster s that despite having a finite amount of Attack and Defence points (heck, even 0) they are Tier 2, and the fact that in game, you can just use a Maigic Card to raise their stats exponentially just makes it even worse.

      Again, in cases like these, the monster's Tier should be scaled only via lore, or maybe statements (example: Galaxy Eyes Photon Dragon and Tachion Dragons are stated to be equal [even if their tier is unknown, but whatever, you got it]).

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    • Lemme simplify this for you before you reply, Kukui.

      Did they generate any kind of energy in the duel (aka. Using ATK points)? Yes, as shown in the links rapid provided ttps://youtu.be/_sX_3BVpv-Y?t=12m18s https://youtu.be/_sX_3BVpv-Y?t=13m13s Are effects able to be used irl? Yes, because of Shining Dragon using its effect irl in the novel and the movie. https://youtu.be/ylC-MJjpPiM Obelisk has infinite ATK points? Anime Obelisk has the effect that allows itself to gain infinite atk points https://youtu.be/BKTcorgMlrs

      And thus, scales directly to High 3-A by basic laws of mathemathics.

      b-b-b-but those are STATS! W-we cant use them to scale ANYTHING!

      Jojoverse, Undertale and Puella Magi verse literally use literal ingame stats, ranks and inverse guides to determine stats.

      B-but!

      No, its over.

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    • @DMB1 Sorry mate, but Joey vs Varon in Season 4 (which is canon to anime Yugi) already proven that duel monsters atk can cause raw AP energy in the real world, and by effects, would scale to Infinite Obelisk.

      Of course, it would be troublesome to determine that a certain amount of attack mean a specific AP, but this one is pretty much clear cut.

      (A reasonable assumption would be 4000 ATK = Planet Level because of Base Obelisk being stated to be able to destroy the planet in the anime at Season 5, but then there are monsters that can destroy stars and stuff in card lore at far lower ATK points.)

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    • @Rapid

      Because they wouldnt be at those tiers unless they had good reason to and had other users here supporting them. If not, then they too should also be downgraded for possibly being in the same boat as Yuguoh. That is what I meant when I used "either" to address both conclusions.

      Differences? What about canonincity and how the mechanics of the verse work? Those are very notable differences to explain why they get it and why others do not. Not all verses are the same. That said, because I dont know the verses, if there is no differences then another thread about them should be made to not derail this one.

      >Raw AP

      Yes I can see that Rapid but the problem again is that isnt how tier 3 works. You cant do a raw AP feat, apply infinite energy, and then suddenly raise it to 3-A. Victini has AP feats. Andriods 16-18 Pre-DBS have AP feats. They all have infinite energy and are no where near tier 3. Applying this kind of logic would suddenly and majorly upgrade not only the former, but also any character whos lower than 3-A but have endless energy.

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    • >Trying to even fool people into thinkinh ATK points are "energy".

      You are flat out trying to fool people at this point.

      1.-Atk points are the direct source of the AP feat in question, there is no 'energy" nor "stamina' mechanic in yugioh, in fact, every single time ATK is talked about its about strenght. Yugi literally says that sacrificing Two minsters for Obelisk gives him "infinite strenght" in the pyramid of light's opening Yugi vs Kaiba duel.

      2.-energy has never ever been talked about in yugioh, that is flat out headcanon.


      I tought you bettee than this, but right now, you are doing nothing but lie and push a literal false narrative.

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    • Also, literally comparing DB's Androids to Yugioh is a false equivalence as explained above.

      And that shit aint getting pass me because i actually know about the verses you are trying to fool people with.

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    • Are you saying Dragon Ball Android's infinite eneegy is somehow comparable to literal infinite strenght?

      Who the hell are you trying to fool here? That is 100% head canon.

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    • The problem now would be appltyng card effects to hax<s/>

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    • Megaboy Prime wrote: Lemme simplify this for you before you reply, Kukui.

      Did they generate any kind of energy in the duel (aka. Using ATK points)? Yes, as shown in the links rapid provided ttps://youtu.be/_sX_3BVpv-Y?t=12m18s https://youtu.be/_sX_3BVpv-Y?t=13m13s Are effects able to be used irl? Yes, because of Shining Dragon using its effect irl in the novel and the movie. https://youtu.be/ylC-MJjpPiM Obelisk has infinite ATK points? Anime Obelisk has the effect that allows itself to gain infinite atk points https://youtu.be/BKTcorgMlrs

      And thus, scales directly to High 3-A by basic laws of mathemathics.

      b-b-b-but those are STATS! W-we cant use them to scale ANYTHING!

      Jojoverse, Undertale and Puella Magi verse literally use literal ingame stats, ranks and inverse guides to determine stats.

      B-but!

      No, its over.

      For the former, I already addressed this more than 7 times now. None of this is tier 3 in any sense or the requirements and definition. You need to re-read or carefully look at my replies. As for the latter, i said this in my recent reply. Those verses, if different, have more going for them than Yugioh to put them at those tiers. Yugioh =/= these verses. Not all verses are made the same. But if they arent different, then those verses needed to be discussed in a different thread regarding their stats so this one isnt derailed.

      @Rapid

      Again, dont accuse me of stuff. We dont want this ending up like last time and making accusations is not helping.

      1.) Re-read my replies then. We already have a thread explaining why ATK points equaling power isnt acceptable here and no it isnt proven. There is absolutely no evidence that ATK points equal strength. No energy mechanic? Whats the basis of a characters power? Energy. This is simple. And having infinite energy does not at all mean you are tier 3, much less 3-A for the reasons ive already explained but keep getting missed.

      2.) Once again, energy is the basis of a characters power....there is nothing headcanon about that. Everyone uses energy for their power and strength.

      >Andriods as false equivalnce

      They arent, unless you have a good explanation for why they are different. Both sides are given infinite power, in the sense of energy for their strength, yet the andriods before Super are absolutely no where near tier 3. And even with the benefit of the doubt, Victini is still an example to how this isnt 3-A as well.

      >It being head canon

      It most certainly is not 100% head canon. It's using logic. Once again, to have power and strength you need energy. To be 5-B in power you need 5-B energy. To be 4-C in power you need 4-C energy. To be 3-C in power you need 3-C energy. And so on. The andriods, like everyone else, have energy and ever since the Andriod Saga have been confirmed to have an infinite amount of it. And they arent 3-A in the absolute slightest (Pre-DBS). Not even tier 3. So what exactly makes Yugioh any different from this in them having infinite energy from ATK points? Without a good explanation, nothing at all.

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    • That has already been accepted in the previous thread about Shining Dragon, who used its effect on Anubis like he was a monster in the Pyramid of Light Movie/Novel.

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    • Which makes any non-duelist technically a monster in a Versus Thread, and Pegasus's Dark game Soul Damage hax should scale to all Dark Game users. (Yugi, Shadi, Marik,etc.)

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    • https://youtu.be/BKTcorgMlrs

      "When two monsters are sacrificed, Obelisk's FORCE becomes infinite!"

      Kukui? Anything to say?

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    • That doesn't really change much according to my previous replies.

      And that's a sub yes? I can't check the vid atm because I'm still in school right now.

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    • Are you legit kidding me right now?

      Both me and Prime adressed your points directly and the de0lorable attempt at fooling people by literally getting that energy shit out of your head.



      The burden of proof is on you to prove your claim.



      Prove that ATK points refer to energy and not force, Kukui.

      Or will you admit you legit tried to lie?

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    • @Rapid and Mega you uh, do realize AP is based on energy not force...?

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    • SomebodyData wrote: @Rapid and Mega you uh, do realize AP is based on energy not force...?

      This. Literally this....

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    • The accusations are strong in this thread .... Jeez.

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    • Look at this Damage Control...

      Lemme quote Kukui here for a moment:

      Yes I can see that Rapid but the problem again is that isnt how tier 3 works. You cant do a raw AP feat, apply infinite energy, and then suddenly raise it to 3-A. Victini has AP feats. Andriods 16-18 Pre-DBS have AP feats. They all have infinite energy and are no where near tier 3. Applying this kind of logic would suddenly and majorly upgrade not only the former, but also any character whos lower than 3-A but have endless energy.


      He literally tried to fool people into thinking that somehow, the ATK Points in duel monsters are like the unlimited energy resources from Dragon ball Androids, which has been proven to be a false equivalency by Joey vs Marik AND joey vs Varon, where literal energy feats are shown.

      Nice try, but the ball is still on your court.


      Your replies have really lost a lot of arguments, Kukui.

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    • I'd admit, that seems rather unlikely. 

      That said... did you guys just prove ATK is Force and not Joules/Energy?

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    • Oh my god.

      You are the one saying tht the monsters do mot have energy to do feats.

      Are you ignoring the direct clips of animation posted on this very thread? Lemme repost them so you dont peetend they didnt exist.

      As clear as day, we can see that duel monsters ATK has energy to it, and that energy is literally scaled to infinity by Obelisk's effect

      https://youtu.be/_sX_3BVpv-Y?t=12m18s

      https://youtu.be/_sX_3BVpv-Y?t=13m13s

      Obliterated.

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    • @Megaboy are you talking to me? I just got here like two posts ago.

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    • And again Rapid, I repeat Somebodys question. You do realize a character needs and has energy reserves in their power right? Yes or no?

      That's literally the only answer needed to shut that down in all honesty.

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    • I think it should not be used, for example Dartz has a monster with infinite life points like Effect Obelisk and the lore or plot of the arc shows that is far far weaker than the Oricalcos God simple because Dartz description and aim about it [his deck and etc.], said God clashed with the other ones, including Obelisk who was not using said ability or effect since because it was not a card battle.

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    • >Shut down all of this

      Yeah, it will pretty much shut down all of your baseless and badless arguments.

      Yes, those attackd have energy, as proven above by Joey vs Varon.

      Sorry man, but you gotta post proof or at least know what you are trying to say.

      If DM has energy as i proved with the links to the duel, then it is prerty much over for anyone who denies High 3-A obelisk.

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    • Actually we can probably easily conclude this argument. Has anyone hit by Infinite Obelisk died?

      Also, Dark649 has a point here.

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    • Whats with that very condesending expression?

      Kukui, its okay if you are losing a debate, but do try to keep your cool.

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    • So your answer then is yes? Okay then.

      Then it literally returns to my previous repeated arguments. Infinite energy is not tier 3. Period.

      Forgive me @everyone, but I've had to re-explain this over 8 times now.

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    • @Mega condescending expression?... What are you talking about?

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    • SomebodyData wrote: Actually we can probably easily conclude this argument. Has anyone hit by Infinite Obelisk died?

      No.

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    • Oh boy, what a bad argument.

      As explained before, Duel Monsters has a relative Durability because of the rules.

      ATK points have not been calced to be a certain tier yet, so 4000 LP cannot be properly placed for now.

      Has Sora destroyed a fucking star? No. Has Champa destroyed a universe? No.

      It is basic scaling as stated above.

      You are the one who is done for man, do not try to pull stuff like this.

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    • >re explain this 8 times now

      You have repeated the same debunked argument by that many times.

      Its literally any AP feat in DM multiplied by infinity.

      The feats shown in the links shown at least 5 times above (whicj you havent seen) show raw AP feats that are literally increased to ifninity by Obelisk's effect.

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    • That argument would only work if the AP wasn't infinite, or the fact that no matter how you look at it infinite attack points would one shot regardless of LP. Or that the game mechanics are actually incorporated. 

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    • >Obelisk hasnt killed anyone by infinite

      Are you kidding me dark?

      Not only DM AP is only aplicable in a Dark Game, and thus, Yugi wouldnt want to murder Kaiba.

      And when used against Marik he managed to endure it with 1 LP by Ra's effect.

      Debunked.

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    • This thread has literally turned into a literal dumpster fire.

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    • Agrees with Matthew, also my Dartz comment debunked all the infinite stuff.

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    • >Crt+F's "literal"

      >Gets 50+ results

      /thread

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    • Data.

      You literally dont know what the hell you are talking about.

      It was agreed upon that AP are only aplicable when the duel is a DARK GAME, and just a card game in any other scenario.

      Infinite Obelisk was used TWICE.

      Against Kaiba where IT WAS NOT A DARK GAME AND YUGI HAS LITERALLY NO REASON TO KILL KAIBA

      and Against Marik, WHO USED AN EFFECT TO LITERALLY GAIN ONE LIFE POINT BEFORE LOSING.

      Read the thread.

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    • Wasn't it used in PoL?...

      Ignoring the fact that Dark649 pointed out Dartz...

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    • ...... I would've provided much more feats... But considering what I'm seeing now....

      Anime Abandon Thread
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    • @Rapid

      The major difference between this and Champa though is that Champa doesn't even need to bust a universe to actually be 3-A. He scales = to Beerus who he and Goku did a 3-A feat because of a bunch of other stuff. Champas low 2-C nonetheless but everyone gets the point. Comparing Yugioh to DBS isn't getting you anywhere.

      You can only say an attack doesn't need to bust [insert here] when it has other stuff from the respective tier to back it, like Champa does. Otherwise you judge an attack from showings or calcs. As I've already said.

      >Debunked each time

      They were not debunked, they were ignored which was why I was required to re-explain it that much and asked you to re-read it. Multiplying an AP feat by infinity is NOT and will never be tier 3. Unless we want 3-A Victini, Andriod 16, 17 and 18.

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    • The major difference between this and Champa though is that Champa doesn't even need to bust a universe to actually be 3-A. He scales'Bold text' = to Beerus

      What did you say? "Scales"?

      Thanks for letting me know you agree with me.

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    • Wait is there a High 3-A feat he scales from? 

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    • It was only used on the beggining of PoL in a REGULAR DUEL against Kaiba and Anubis.

      One thing that is worth noting is that Yugi didnt want to kill Anubis either, it is just not in character for him to want that unless it is necessary or he is possesed by the Orichachos.

      After Anubis transforms into a monster and attempts to murder everyone with his very real powers, Yuginuses Shining Dragon's effect to kill him. IRL.

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    • Android 17 is 3-A

      Just saying ;-)

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    • Oh snap.


      Outskilled

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    • 99% sure it was used later to end the duel, this time in hopes that it would blast him to oblivion, but Imma check it later.

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    • Yeah to end the duel.

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    • @Rapid

      I don't see how that means I agree with you. Because Champa in this case is scaling off an actual 3-A character, who has multiple other justifications for him being tier 3.

      @Mega

      I knew you'd use that as a counter. Yes 17 is 3-A but thats Dragon Ball Super 17. I've said over 5 times that im talking about the andriods from the andriod saga, who are tier 4. Not to mention, 17 is 3-A because of totally different reasons and just a reminder that 18 isnt 3-A herself so this counter doesnt really amount to much.

      And no one still has an answer to Victini being no where near tier 3 despite it having infinite power.

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    • Why the hell are you telling ME to justify Victini? You are the one who denies direct scaling by stats like in Undertale, Jojo and Puella Magi.

      Its just turn to justify those three verses, since they literally use the same argument for their tiers than High 3-A Obelisk.

      As you can see, you are not dealing with the average debater warrior anymore.

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    • There are different reasons in those cases (Like actual feats [Madoka rewrote the Multiverse, Undertale has stuff like the Tsundreplane calc, etc])

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    • Yeah, because you just said scaling was legit, and High 3-A is scaled from Shining dragon using effects irl and Joey vs Varon creating an Ap feat irl.

      They all scale to Obelisk's High 3-A as proven above.


      Debunked, man. Debunked.

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    • ...Uh? Does Shining Dragon have a High 3-A feat to scale from? Or did you put scaling when you meant something else?

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    • Shadii created a 4-A room in Capsule monsters, Yugi's deck created a separate timeline in GX, Knight of Destiny surpassing 3D Infinity, Joey vs Marik, etc, etc.

      And that is only animeneverse.


      There are 3-A feats in Dark side of dimensions on the mangaverse.

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    • 99% sure everything you just said is still being discussed.


      Also, didn't Dark649 point out that Dartz accidentally debunks the idea that the ATK points even matter?

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    • Hell, Pegasus has a reality warping battle woth Bakura irl without any duel monster card thingies, and dark games were literally killing Yugi's soul in their duel.

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    • That's not even relevant tho.

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    • Yeah man, there are feats to back this shit up bruh

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    • How does "Hell, Pegasus has a reality warping battle woth Bakura irl without any duel monster card thingies, and dark games were literally killing Yugi's soul in their duel." back High 3-A up?

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    • @Mega

      I think you read my reply wrong. I wasn't asking or telling you to justify Victini. I was noting Victini out to be another example to how infinite energy doesn't mean you are tier 3 and saying no one had a counter or answer for this.

      And as Somebody pointed out, those verses like Undertake and Puella are different because of stuff like rewriting the Multiverse. Even if they werent, it would come down to either or. But like I said before, other threads about the other verses can be made as its off-topic.

      @Rapid

      Like Somebody again pointed out, the scaling for Champa is legit because hes being scaled from actual 3-As and 3-A feats. The same cannot be said for Yugioh here, which is why their scaling is not at all legit.

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    • Read the entire thread after my long while gone.



      I must say, these debates between the two of ya really are something else.



      Anywho, Kukui has not posted any proof to back his claims like always, i gotta give my support to team upgrade just for that. There is a lot more value in actually presenting proof for something than just screaming that it is an outlier for vague reasons at best.

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    • Somebody didnt point out shit, he just said that there are other elements that back up the usual tierings of stats and ranks in those verses, NOT that they didnt scale.

      An A in the Jojoverse still means you are MFTL, A extra in the Puella Verse means you have infinite in that stat, etc.

      In Yugioh it is not different, no matter how much you try to tell yourself that.

      The amount of AP Aka applied energy to cause some sort of damage is crearly visible on the links i will post yet again.

      https://youtu.be/_sX_3BVpv-Y?t=12m18s

      https://youtu.be/_sX_3BVpv-Y?t=13m13s

      The value is increased a infinity times over you like it or not, it is not just "reserved" energy, it is cleaely applied and used to cause legit damage, unlike DB`´s Androids.

      They have ininite Energy but cannot use them in a way that causes infinite AP.


      >Which cannot be said for Yugioh



      You are literally making stuff up as you go, and you are wrong.

      Either write a decent argument or ill really just call some more admins to the thread to end this charade of yours.

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    • Then you must not be following what literally 99% of this wiki goes by (and I mean this in the most civil respectful way possible). I'll put this bluntely but kindly. 

      What needs to be understood here is the fact that my job is NOT to prove this is an outlier. Its no ones job to prove something is an outlier as you are essentially asking them to prove a negative. That isnt how this works. In stat revision threads, if someone calls out/asks if a rating is consistent, its the opposing sides job to prove it ISNT an outlier. They are the ones claiming its legit, consistent and not an outlier, so they are the ones who must provide evidence to prove a positive. If they cannot disprove a negative, then nothing is going to be happening. 

      And given how this thread has gone, none of that is happening yet.  

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    • Ill call some more admins here, this is getting nowhere.

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    • @Rapid

      Thats kind of what pointing stuff out is though. And if he is correct, that is very very different from whats going on here with Yugioh. That said, if you believe this is the same as them, then make a CRT for those verses to have their statisics be revised as well. It's off topic. 

      For your links, they literally don't prove its different from DB's Androids, unless your arguing the Andriods attacks dont cause battle damage all of a sudden? And for the "infinite times over stuff", its not my concern if it does or not. I don't care if it does because it has nothing to do with my argument. The problem, your not addressing is the fact that you can't do an AP feat, apply infinite energy to it, and slap on 3-A. That isnt, for the 100th time, how the tiering works. I can easily say the same thing for the andriods in that they do a casual 5-B feat but because they have infinite energy I can abuse it to mean 3-A. Thats not how this goes. 

      And finally, given how theres like 6 staff members here and none of them support these upgrades, calling more staff here isn't going to really help. 

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    • Lemme debunk your "argument" while we wait.



      my job is NOT to prove this is an outlier.

      It is since you claimed it to be you claimed a positive on it being a negative, ive posted proof of the feats being true and applicable to raw AP, aka, ive proven a possitive. But, this is no court.

      Most other verses dont have to deal with this because people who discuss those verses actually know what they are talking about.

      its the opposing sides job to prove it ISNT an outlier. They are the ones claiming its legit,

      Thats the thing, ive already proven it is not an outlier based on the other feats you simply ignore.



      And given how this thread has gone, none of that is happening yet.  

      This is because of you, not anyone else. 

      Thats why im calling admins to check the thread.

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    • For your first point, claiming its an outlier doesn't need evidence behind it because again, its not my job to prove a negative. Its the people arguing for the upgrades to prove their positive. Most other verses not dealing with this? That is very, very false. You'd be surprise with how many other verses go through this because of their material, consistency and outliers. 

      And no you havent proven it isnt an outlier. That is the issue. Literally every single feat you've brought forth in this thread to attempt so is still being discussed for being incredibly flawed and questionable. Somebody even addressed this above. 

      Finally, so what if its because of me? No offense, but I have the right to question any material I see flaws in no matter if people agree or disagree with me, like everyone else. If I see an issue, im going to address (and in some cases argue) it instead of blindily and lazily go with the majority. And as for calling more staff, we already have 6+ of them here to see the thread, all of whom are perfectly capable of giving their input about the topic. 

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    • Matthew Schroeder wrote:
      This thread has literally turned into a literal dumpster fire.

      Then stop the fire, not just stand there and let it burn. It's your fucking JOB to stop it.

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    • Yeah, no shit.

      Just look at both sides.

      One has posted scans, direct feed and translations.

      The other has just said everything is an outlier without posting anything that backs him up.

      Gee i wonder

      Just accept the upgrades and let this thread die.

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    • What makes you think he'll agree to anything? You can't force him, and you can't enforce your own changes to the page cause they'll get undone and you'll suffer something for trying.

      We could just always do the final thing if we can't clean the users and just ban this specific debate altogether.

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    • How about this, we make a staff thread, both Rapid and Megaboy post their evidence and Kukui and I post our side, let the debate end with that.

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    • Well, kukui can do a list of what his arguments are and ill do the same and have admins decide the winner.

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    • What about one of us making a new thread? Doubt this one would gain traction.

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    • Dont forget to include the links to the prevoous threads/feats like i did on this one.

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    • Ok. I'm thinking I'll make the thread, and we each get say a day just to organize the information. Then I'll highlight it.

      Also regardless of what is decided, we've already agreed on a few things right? (Like Shadow Games being Pocket Reality Manipulation and losing in one being a sort of Soul BFR in the animeverse)

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    • Yeah, i think we can all agree on that for now.

      There are other things aside from AP that need discussion like each Millenium Item's exclusive hax (Like Mind Control for marik and Luck Manip for yugi).

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    • Yeah abilities aren't an issue here, I agree with them (matter of fact there may be more that havent been brought up. I may've found something for Yugi and Atem but i'll wait until the other AP stuff is done to mention it). 

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    • A FANDOM user
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