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  • Matthew Schroeder
    Matthew Schroeder closed this thread because:
    http://vsbattles.wikia.com/wiki/Thread:1428866
    20:44, February 26, 2018

    Part 1: The Unknown Statistics

    I have sat back on the "Unknown" status of many of the Medaka Box statistics with the assumption that it was not merely for show. It has recently come to my attention that there is a major lack of concensus on what level the abilities actually work on, and that there must be some note that the abilities such as All Fiction and Book Maker should have "Unknow, Atleast Low 2-C" as apposed to just "Unknown."

    Here is my case for the "Atleast Low 2-C status." We know that:

    1) Either multiple universes or dimensions exist within Medaka Box. See Ajimu's skill list and Medaka's adventures

    2) All Fiction can erase all of existence

    3) Ajimu exists a step above the rest of Medaka Box (expcet Hanten)

    4) Book Maker and All Fiction can work on Ajimu even without her consent

    Due to this, All Fiction and Book Maker work on Atleast a 4D scale



    Part 2: The Hero

    I believe "The Hero" should be listed on Medaka and Iihiko's profiles, and should be listed under abilities. Even if the basis for it is essentially plot armor, I think it has enough grounding and properties to atleast warrent a mention on the profiles. For those who do not know about Medaka Box, I'll fill you in. After rereading the series and analysing it multiple time throw, I have written a brief Analysis of "The Hero."

    "The Hero" from Medaka Box. It is both the meta "ability," or perhaps it would be better to describe it as a status, of plot armor but also an actual power with actual properties. In essence, if all beings are bound to the whims of the plot and fate, then The Hero is the "status," to always have the whims flow in your favor. Even Plot manipulation will not stop it, only flat out nullification of all plot and fate based powers will.
    The Hero is not a binary status. Characters can have lesser versions. Characters such as Medaka or Iihiko have an absolute status as The Hero, and Zenkichi would as well but Devil Style stops its proper functioning. Kamome Tsurubami has a lesser version of The Hero; he has a "Dark Hero" status. He is closer to being the main character, but does not have absolute plot armor. Just like other Edge Lord Heroes, he can lose on the grand scale from time to time (Think of characters like Guts). Kumagawa also has some level of The Hero, but it is unknown exactly how his version works and may even force him to lose. [Here is an album of all my scans to cite my sources.]



    Part 3: Comparable To Itself

    This was brought up once before by Jordanbairdcreaturemaster97, but it did not get the attention it deserved so I will bring up his original points again here. I will bring up his same general points and summerize them but change some of the minor things that got agreed on.

    In almost every fight in Medaka Box, the combatants are comparable and can physically match eachother in hand to hand combat with very few exceptions (End God Mode Medaka and Iihiko are some of the few rare cases). everyone can trade blows in DC and Durability and the only implications of superiority loop back in on themselved (e.g. supposedly Akune is superior to Medaka, who is superior to Oudo, who is superior to Koga, who is superior to Akune)

    Hax, intellect, and techniques, are what decide fights, not raw stats. Thus all characters (unless something obviously points to an exception) are physically comparable. What rare destructive feats there are should plug right into the scaling chain, since usually no fight is won through raw stats.

    You can look at his examples of what feats would plug into this chain and which should be exempt in the original discussion. Addressing these are not my intention for this section



    Part 4: The Good Loser

    Some Kumagawa ability additions:

    Kumagawa can spawn his Screws directly inside people to bypass durability, this should be listed under his DC as such

    Kumagawa's time erasure should be listed as Psuedo Time Stop along with Psuedo Teleportation, since he is erasing time

    I would like to list Kumagawa erasing the concept of color under his feats. Conceptual Manipulation should be added under his abilities. Unlike most Anime and Manga, the events of the Good Loser Kumagawa anime episode are canon

    Kumagawa resists Telepathy and Mental abilities



    Part 5: The Non-Humans

    Some things that should be added to Hanten and Ajimu's profiles

    Ajimu should have transduality as one of her abilities, and Hanten should have it listed as a possible ability on his profile. A case for transduality (you can ignore the things regarding other stuff on that post)

    Hanten should have Time Stop, Photon Manipulation, and Space Displacement listed under potential abilities. Since Ajimu mentioned they were abilities he could create

    This picture of Hanten's first appearence in front view should be added to a gallery on his profile
    Hanten from the front









    Part 6: Changing Public Image

    Many of the Images for profiles should be changed for the profiles, and new tabs should be added for several of the characters. This is less important but I felt it should be addressed

    Medaka: We should add new tabs for her at increments through the series. First off, her main image should be this one and not that god awful picture of her in her summer uniform. A tab should also be added for her design in the Jet Black Wedding/Unknown Shiranui arc since her design is different enough that I think it is warrented

    We should look for color images to replace the black and white profile pictures we have for a few of the character, especially the ones ripped straight from the Manga



    Ok this was quite a long revision post, so thanks for reading it. Thought? Opinions? Critisism?

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    • I agree with all of the points brought up. Especially All Fiction and Bookmaker.

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    • Not particulary knowledgable when it comes to medaka box so i will just sit here and follow the ride

      but it seems to make sense

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    • .

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    • Medaka-box-3966207

      Proof that alternate universes exist in Medaka Box

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    • looks all good, I pretty much agree

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    • I'm against the Concept M.

      Theres no "the concept of colors", just "erasing colors"

      But, I don't know about the Transduslity.

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    • SchroKatze wrote: I'm against the Concept M.

      Theres no "the concept of colors", just "erasing colors"

      But, I don't know about the Transduslity.

      Erasing colors would be erasing a property of the universe, so to erase them would be to erase the concept. Like erasing gravity

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    • Or just erase the light properties. Colors are just light reflecting on something, after all.

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    • If he erased the visual spectrum from the electromagnetic spectrum? Cuz that's also what color is. So i guess that would be physics manipulation then?

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    • con·cept ˈkänˌsept/ noun an abstract idea; a general notion.

      I would say colours are a notion of perception, and a idea.

      Hence being a concept

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    • There are ideas behind everything but erasing something doesn't mean the idea's ceased to exist.

      I don't know anything about Medaka Box though.

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    • Why are all the good usernames taken? rs wrote: con·cept ˈkänˌsept/ noun an abstract idea; a general notion.

      I would say colours are a notion of perception, and a idea.

      Hence being a concept


      This ^

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    • @Iapitus, maybe.

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    • But the guy who I forget his name and Kumagawa's betch even remember the "concept" of colors.

      It looks like he erased the very electromagnetic spectrum, not the concept itself.

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    • Conceptual erasure wouldn't result in memory loss by necessity, look at the fate series for examples of conceptual erasure that doesn't result in memory loss. And this isn't just the properties of light, this is the very way people perceive the universe, since Kumagawa said they could no longer tell the chalk from the blackboard

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    • I'm in agreement with everything, especially on the behalf of Kumgawa getting Conceptual Manipulation added to his profile. It been brought up many times by multiple people over the years on Vsbattle especially seeing how it follows The Causality Manipulation page even states further evidence. 

      OVXdgmd

      Proof that All Fiction is Causality Based.

      The user can also instantly erase anything from existence, by making it's existence the cause of it's own nonexistence.

      Causality Manipulation



      Monarch Laciel and PaChi2 spoke about this heavily back on a previous Verus thread that were either closed or removed. 

      Oh, Iapitus The Impaler I believe this is one of the scans were maybe looking for in regard to Part 2: The Hero. Main Character status

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    • Yeah thanks

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    • You're welcome. But how do we bring a mod or admin to this thread? 

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    • watch full anime but didnt finished the manga so gotta read it first

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    • Mr. Common Sense wrote: You're welcome. But how do we bring a mod or admin to this thread? 

      How most people do it.

      Bug them to death on there homepage.

      (Though if this gets enough traction, they'll come without being called)

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    • I also don't know much about Medaka Box. You should ask Pachi to comment here.

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    • Part 1: I guess, i'm okay with these.

      Part 2: It does make sense.

      Part 3: Not really sure what to say here.

      Part 4: I'm totally fine with this.

      Part 5: Not sure about the transduality thing of Ajimu.

      Part 6: The only problem here is: for example the image that you linked, good luck trying to find a rendered image AND with good quality. Color images are extremely rare for this series, i would rather make a render of some manga pictures, you can probably find colored images of the main cast and mayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyybe 1 or 2 of secondary characters, unlikely for the rest.

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    • KamiYasha wrote:
      snip

      Part 3: Do you need to to clarify anything or is it just a weird case?

      Part 5: is there anything you see particularly wrong with it or just a sketchy case?

      Part 6: I may need to go dive and try to find some. I'll post any good replacement images I can find. So you know how to make renders and colored images? If you can make some that would be much appreciated. Perhaps I can request some folks on Deviant Art to make some

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    • Medaka Kurokami Fanart
      I think I found a better rendered version, is this good?
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    • @Iapitus

      That's not rendered. I can look for something when I have time.

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    • Nvm I guess I didn't know what y'all meant by rendering

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    • 1) I suppose that this seems to make sense.

      2) We do not have a power called "The Hero", and you are likely thinking of "The theory of narrative causality". The closest thing we have is our Plot-Induced Stupidity page treated as an actual superpower.

      3) Several characters seem to be physically comparable, yes, but that does not mean that we can assume that all of them automatically are without any proof.

      4) Durability negation and conceptual manipulation seem fine, as does resistance to telepathy. Time stop and teleportation seem more questionable.

      5) You need to summarise why they should have transduality, but from what I understand it is an extremely advanced ability, usually reserved for characters unfathomably beyond their scale of raw power. According to some members only 1-A characters should qualify.

      6) I do not mind improving the header images, but we usually prefer full character body shots with the backgrounds removed.

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    • @Antvasima 

      2) In regard to "The Hero" wouldn't Plot Manipulation suffice better than Plot-Induced Stupidity?  

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    • massively supported

      first non downplay post I have ever seen concerning medakaverse on this site

      everyone else around here seems to be convinced they are small building level or some shit

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    • @Common

      It is specifically the ability to have stories automatically turn out fine due to being the main character, treated as an actual superhuman power. Plot manipulation is a more conscious effort, and can be used in a more versatile manner.

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    • I think that the image looks fine.

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    • Awh, ok. Thank you for the difference. 

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    • No problem.

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    • 2) "The Hero" is the term that the characters in Medaka Box use to describe characters such as Medaka, Iihiko, and Zenkichi. I was not referencing any given page on this wiki. I was more pushing for a passive plot manipulation and fate manipulation, if it were to be a specific page on this wiki. I think it would be better if I made a plog post explaining "The Hero" and simply link that as an explanation under powers and abilities.

      I should also like to add that we should place a Rule for Medaka that The Hero should be disabled for her VS fights unless Either other plot manipulation powers are at play or her opponent has a way to counter it, as we have done with certain types of immortality

      3) I was more pitching a General Rule for the verse where the obvious exceptions are left out, because as it stands, more of ther verse is part of this 'chain of comparability then not.' With the exception of minor standard deviation up and down:

      Medaka who is comparable to Kumagawa who is comparable to Zenkichi who is comparable to his mom who is comparable to Emukae who is comparable to Kumagawa who is comparable to Shiranui who is comparable to Medaka who is comparable to Hinokage who is comparable to Kumagawa who is comparable to Gagamaru (He was able to harm Kumagawa even without hax, we don't know his durability due to his defensive hax obviously) who is comparable to Shibuki who is comparable to Naze who is comparable to Whatever that style user she fought on the plane was who is comparable to the other style users who are comparable to Medaka and Kumagawa and Zenkichi and I can do more. Really at this point if a character has engaged in combat with any of the characters I listed above and didn't one shot or get one shot then they are physically comparable

      4) Teleportation is what is already listed on the page and was accepted some time ago, psuedo teleportation and psuedo time stop are just ways of trying to describe what is essentially an instantaneous movement speed blitz button for Kumagawa

      5) I'm not sure what else you want me to say but I can reword my case if you want. TLT is transdualistic and is only High 1-B. Ajimu is obviously a metafictional parody of which the wiki has explicitly decided not to draw a conclusion on her tier, so really this may have just been another way for the author to hype her up even more

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    • Antvasima wrote:
      @Common

      It is specifically the ability to have stories automatically turn out fine due to being the main character, treated as an actual superhuman power. Plot manipulation is a more conscious effort, and can be used in a more versatile manner.


      well we do have cases like Beyond, which this would be a similar case to

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    • I agree with almost everything here for reasons above 

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    • Possible Render images for Kumagawa.

      Kumagawa 1 and Kumagawa 2

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    • Mr. Common Sense wrote:
      Possible Render images for Kumagawa.

      Kumagawa 1 and Kumagawa 2

      I'm actually ok with Kumagawa's current image, but out of those I prefer the first

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    • 2) Well, linking to blogs in the powers and abilities section is considered inappropriate, but I suppose that a brief explanation of her automatic plot manipulation might be acceptable.

      3) I suppose that seems mostly reasonable.

      4) I do not remember this ability though.

      5) I would appreciate a summary written here regarding why she and Hanten are transdual.

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    • The first Kumagawa image is best, yes.

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    • I heavily disagree with Transduality. That would imply she should be 1-A. Transduality involves transcending all binary concepts, and this would indeed cover dimensional/dimensionless. It also doesn't say she transcends duality, it implies that she doesn't believe in duality and believes that everything is just ink on a page as fiction to her. It doesn't imply that she is above this ink on a page, nor does it imply she transcends fiction. If proof of those things exist, it might be good to show them.

      I agree with everything else.

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    • doesnt she basically write the final episode of season 2 and is seen in an editing room with medaka box art/mangas etc with a tv playing medaka box behind her?

      https://imgur.com/a/PRVAc

      she also knows how many volumes the manga has and calls other people manga characters

      not sure if you just consider that 4th wall feats or if it would fall under writing an episode of your own anime or appearing outside of your own anime/manga

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    • That just looks like Plot Manipulation and 4th Wall Awareness to me, not transcending the ink on the page.

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    • Antvasima
      Antvasima removed this reply because:
      07:29, February 22, 2018
      This reply has been removed
    • Antvasima
      Antvasima removed this reply because:
      07:29, February 22, 2018
      This reply has been removed
    • I agree with most of the points here, as well as "The Hero" being listed as passive Plot Manipulation (banned in matches). The transduality does seem more like hype to me, but an overall at least 2-C tier for hax seems reasonable considering how several skills are explicitly affecting multiple universes.

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    • Antvasima wrote:
      2) Well, linking to blogs in the powers and abilities section is considered inappropriate, but I suppose that a brief explanation of her automatic plot manipulation might be acceptable.

      3) I suppose that seems mostly reasonable.

      4) I do not remember this ability though.

      5) I would appreciate a summary written here regarding why she and Hanten are transdual.

      2) So is that a yes?

      4) During his fight with the president's goons at his previous school, she states that he is erasing time. Its easy pretty eay to miss. This is likely the author's excuse for how Kumagawa seemingly instantly turns situations like this into this instantly. You know all those moments when Kumagawa rushes in and 'blitzes' a crap ton of enemies? Or how he teleports past and screws the best of the style users before she had time to react, and how he got behind Medaka without a single person noticing despite his awful presense. Those are all examples of him using this power, but the how he did this was only explained once

      5) Alright, here it goes:

      Her transdualistic status builds off of an already known fact about Ajimu, she essentially sees everything around her as all the same with no distinction between them: they are all fiction; nothing more than ink on a page; no different from the back grounds they lay on. This establishes a possible reality fiction difference already (the anime drives this home more), which is impressive, but if you look a bit deeper then you find something interesting. Remember Ajimu's mini speech where she rambles off a bunch of dualistic principles and says that she doesn't see a difference between them? Well she mentions her inability to distinguish between dualistic concepts again later, and she explicitly says that such dualistic concepts are also nothing more than "all the same ink on a paper," and if you remember before "no distinction from the background." Very Dosist

      Thus, to conclude, from Ajimu's persepctive: Light and Dark, Good and Evil, Poison and Antidote, Winning and Losing, Strength and Weakness, Black and White, Success and Failure, Happiness and Sorrow Punishments and Rewards, Insults and Praise To her its is all ink on a page, No different from the background they lay on.

      Have I made a strong enough case for her transdualisty? Oh and Hanten is comparable to her, so I figured he should just have a 'possible transduality' on his page

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    • You're forgetting that she is also part of the fiction and ink. It doesn't matter if duality is fiction and ink to her if she is also part of said fiction and ink, because that just means she is dual, herself. Unless she transcends the fiction, the ink, the page, all these concepts she's seeing as one and the same, she isn't Transdual. I think making changes to an episode she's within would be too vague to warrant something so great that it makes her 1-A. This would also mean Medaka's Plot Induced Stupidity Inducement could reach that high. There needs to be solid proof of transcendence to said earlier mentioned things.

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    • I agree with THCW.

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    • 2) It is a yes for a brief explanation in the P&A section, with an embedded link to plot manipulation.

      4) Okay. That should be fine then.

      5) This is far too speculative, and is more a case of personal attitude and philosophical perspective that everything has turned meaningless due to her eternal life. This is not acceptable, sorry.

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    • On that point, I feel like giving Ajimu an Unknown, at least 2-C rating would probably be the best course of action, and perhaps we could add possible transduality under Powers and Abilities with a disclaimer of some sort.

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    • No, we do not have sufficient proof for transduality.

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    • Yep, got ninja'd

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    • @Antvasima and TheHadouCyberspaceWitch 

      If Tier 1-A seems to be a misfit due to not enough evidence for transduality wouldn't High 1-B or 1-C suffice a lot better? Her classification presented by Iapitus The Impaler is way above casual Low 2-C in any retrospect or 2-A. 

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    • On point 3, I think that we should probably either assume all characters are in the same tier discounting hax (which currently seems to be 8-B), or list their physical tier as Unknown.

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    • @MCS

      No, sorry, but transduality is rejected.

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    • Antvasima wrote:
      @MCS

      No, sorry, but transduality is rejected.

      he was talking about actually putting a tier to ajimu

      I think you misunderstood him

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    • Yes, sorry. I am very tired. Anyway, I do not think that we have any conclusive proof for Najimi's exact tier, beyond that it is at least Low 2-C.

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    • Antvasima wrote:
      Yes, sorry. I am very tired. Anyway, I do not think that we have any conclusive proof for Najimi's exact tier, beyond that it is at least Low 2-C.

      I think the wording should be adjusted to something more imposing because just calling her tier 2C would be a downplay

      maybe include the wording "likely much higher"

      it wouldnt make sense to just put everybody in tier 2C when she was hyped to be the strongest of the group and the entire manga people constantly react to her like they are impressed

      https://imgur.com/a/nm9Dc

      kumagawa in one frame even makes a statement about "all those shonen jump characters pale in comparison"

      she had to wait for the creation of the universe itself with nothing to do and is above time and space

      https://i.imgur.com/Ok0KQMM.jpg

      she also has 3 known forms of time travel and 1 ability for history manipulation

      she also can be anywhere she wants whenever she wants and even has an ability to cross dimensions

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    • Antvasima
      Antvasima removed this reply because:
      07:29, February 22, 2018
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    • I am fine with "likely much higher".

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    • Antvasima
      Antvasima removed this reply because:
      07:28, February 22, 2018
      This reply has been removed
    • @Whis

      She definitely isn't Tier 0 since she gets defeated and "killed".

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    • She has been sealed by Kumagawa and easily destroyed by Iihiko. She is nowhere near a limitless tier 0.

      This thread is starting to get annoying and unreasonable.

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    • Antvasima
      Antvasima removed this reply because:
      07:34, February 22, 2018
      This reply has been removed
    • TheHadouCyberspaceWitch wrote:
      That would imply she should be 1-A

      who said you had to be 1-A to be trasdualistic? LEM (from what I am told by The One True I/O debater) contests that, and if you want a hard counter to that then the Ancient interpretations of Laozi (I know we are tredding on thin Ice here with the wiki's policies but its easier then me going and digging up scans of an TLT being described as transdualistic) in Daoist cosmology

      On a side note, we aren't allowed to set a specific tier for Ajimu, but I do have her at Outerversal. So don't actually have any issues with this

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    • I concur.

      Can we agree that at least for now we can make the revisions? We're dipping into derailment at this point

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    • Antvasima
      Antvasima removed this reply because:
      07:28, February 22, 2018
      This reply has been removed
    • But Ajimu was killed at one point.

      Despite intending to win.

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    • Again, transduality has been rejected, and all of the exaggerated sidetrack speculation is turning this thread tiresome and annoying to deal with.

      Most of the other initial suggestions have been accepted though, and can probably be applied.

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    • Antvasima
      Antvasima removed this reply because:
      07:30, February 22, 2018
      This reply has been removed
    • I will start to delete all insane sidetrack derailment at this point. I am very tired. Just get this revision over with.

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    • Agreed, knowing everything Antvasima has deem ok in his view should gain the revisions before this thread gets derailed. 

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    • Antvasima
      Antvasima removed this reply because:
      07:31, February 22, 2018
      This reply has been removed
    • She actually implies she does not see herself as a part of it, and part of her sitting above the manga partially backs this up. She states that she feels no reality from the dualistic concepts, the people around her, nor the ink on the page which would imply that she atleast regards herself as real. She doesn't regard herself as part of the episode, but that she created it to fill time (apart from herself). Actually, the things she regards as mear fiction include styles that surpass dimensions. Thus she would be superior to them, and thus 1-A. I don't have an issue with "The Hero" reaching that high, due to the metaphyctional deconstruction of the trope

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    • Sorry @Antvasima.

      I agree to all of these revisions.

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    • damn y'all said a bunch while I was typing that, hold on let me catch myself up on what's going on

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    • No, Transduality can't be achieved in any tier lower than 1-A. Transduality requires transcending all concepts, which includes the concept of dimensions. The Living Tribunal probably does have Transdual quotes. He also has 1-A quotes. It's been discussed that these quotes are inconsistent to his portrayal and should be kept at High 1-B. As for LEM, I don't know much about I/O(my name is a memetic reference to their power, I'm not actually an expert to the series xD), but if LEM is genuinely transdual, LEM should be 1-A unless there is a big contradiction keeping her at High 1-B, and then that would mean the transdual statements aren't properly backed up.

      Nonetheless, I agree with everything else, and I'll stop derailing here.

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    • @Iapitus

      This discussion has been very tiresome to deal with on top of my regular extensive tasks.

      Again, Ajimu possessing 4th wall awareness in combination with a general sense of detachment, boredom, and absolute superiority, is not remotely solid proof for transduality or 1-A stature.

      I would appreciate if you permanently drop this subject, and focus on strictly applying the changes that have been accepted, as I would greatly prefer to close this thread at this point.

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    • Ok, all caught up.

      So transduality is rejected, that's fine. You win some you lose some. I will probably be revisiting this at another time, but that is for another day. Everything else seems to have been accepted tho, so we can go about implementing those changes

      Definitely gonna be going after the assumption that only 1-As can be transdualistic once this is done and I get another chance

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    • Also, please stop quoting long posts. It turns the thread considerably harder to read.

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    • wait y'all typed more

      ok sure, I'll drop this for now

      yeah i will avoid dong so in the future

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    • I would much prefer if you do not revisit this subject at a later point. One time was more than enough for me.

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    • Okay. Thank you for being reasonable.

      If you need any pages temporarily unlocked, you can write a list of the exact page titles here, so I can handle it with my automated script.

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    • I'll go about revising pages in the morning, its 3 AM here and I need sleep. That ok?

      Also, when I edit the Medaka and Iihiko pages, when I give the brief description of "The Hero" in the P&A may I add a note at the bottum of the page to a longer, more indepth explanation? Like what was done with GER's ability. I feel like this would be a good way to avoid confusion in the future

      Also The Hero is also Fate manipulation on top of Plot manipulation so I'll link both, if that is alright

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    • Preferably do not call it "the hero", just automatic plot manipulation that ensures eventual victory. Fate manipulation is most likely inappropriate and overcomplicating the issue.

      Her ability is that the author is on her side/"the theory of narrative causality", which is entirely covered by plot manipulation, or plot-induced stupidity.

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    • I don't see why the Plot-Induced Stupidity page can't be used.

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    • Well, I suppose that we can make an exception, and link to it instead.

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    • I assume Kumagawa is getting "Unknown, At least Low 2-C with All Fiction" correct?

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    • 2-C.

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    • I suppose that "At least 2-C" seems appropriate for Kumagawa and Najimi, yes. Sorry for misremembering.

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    • Well can you unlock Misogi Kumagawa since he is fairly simple? I have the scans and everything.

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    • Antvasima wrote: I suppose that "At least 2-C" seems appropriate for Kumagawa and Najimi, yes. Sorry for misremembering.

      Najimi should ideally be Unknown.

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    • Actually no don't unlock it just yet since I'll be away soon.

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    • Antvasima wrote:
      I suppose that "At least 2-C" seems appropriate for Kumagawa and Najimi, yes. Sorry for misremembering.

      and medaka because she has bookmaker and all fiction

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    • Yes, Medaka as well.

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    • ok, I am back, Ill start with these and then do the others

      I need these profiles unlocked:

      Medaka Kurokami

      Misogi Kumagawa

      Ajimu Najimi

      Hanten Shiranui

      Iihiko Shishime

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    • I have done so. Tell me here when you are done.

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    • Should I leave Ajimu as just unknown? or put her at "Unknown, Atleast 2-C, Likely Far Higher"

      I feel like leaving her and Hanten at Unknown, and we have that rule that says we should leave them at an Unknown tier

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    • Iapitus The Impaler wrote:
      Should I leave Ajimu as just unknown? or put her at "Unknown, Atleast 2-C, Likely Far Higher"

      I feel like leaving her and Hanten at Unknown, and we have that rule that says we should leave them at an Unknown tier

      definitely needs the likely far higher if you decide to call her a 2C

      simply putting 2C is far too underwhelming and we have already seen what people think of medaka box characters when they have an unknown tag (asssume it is a useless tag with no additional power then look @ the stated tier)

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    • Antvasima wrote:
      I have done so. Tell me here when you are done.

      With the excpetion of the Image changes and the questions about the tier edits I just mentioned I have finsished implementing changes, you can close all but the Hanten and Ajimu threads for now

      Some of the other members and I need to collect all the images before those are implemented, so they can be re-openned later

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    • I feel like the description for the 2-C stats doesnt makes sense, since sealing somebody =/= AP, It would be better like (Can destroy all of reality, wich contains multiple Universes), likely higher (Was stated by Ajimu that Higher Dimensions exist in reality, but due to the series' way of portrait Ajimu's statements is unknown If It can be taken seriously.)

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    • Wuta420 wrote:

      simply putting 2C is far too underwhelming and we have already seen what people think of medaka box characters when they have an unknown tag (asssume it is a useless tag with no additional power then look @ the stated tier)

      Yeah that's what I thought too, I decided to not change the tier of those 2 until I get imput of Ant

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    • Why is Misogi listed as 2-C with book maker?

      All Fiction I can understand, but why is Book Maker of all things 2-C?

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    • I also editted Zenkichi, which was open

      I'll update these next so I need them open:

      Youka Naze

      Mukae Emukae

      Gagamaru Chougasaki

      Shibuki Shibushi

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    • I have unlocked the new profiles, but not locked the old ones yet, as they may need to be modified further given the above discussion.

      I agree that Kumagawa should preferably be "At least 2-C" with All Fiction, as Bookmaker is a hard to quantify hax.

      I am uncertain about whether Najimi should be "Unknown" or "At least 2-C, likely far higher", but we can modify the rule if necessary.

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    • I would prefer Ajimu actually remains Unknown in this case since it really makes her seem lower then she most likely is

      I'll change the Atleast 2-C thing to just be via All Fiction

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    • Okay. No problem.

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    • Please remember to put spaces between at and least.

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    • I just noticed that there's a lot of grammar and formating problems on the pages...

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    • Which in particular? I'm sure one of the staff members can look through if need be

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    • Well, I am already very busy.

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    • Now just the Style users and Munakata (Hinokage is actually fine from just my glance over) are left:

      Kamome Tsurubami

      Namanie Nienami

      Joutou Kotobuki

      Kakegae Yuzuriha

      Munakata Kei

      I'll edit them in the morning

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    • Okay. I will unlock them. Tell me here when you are done.

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    • I would like to add something to this, Ajimu actually has an ability to create a Universe under her "BOSS" ability spam. 

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    • Udlmaster wrote: I would like to add something to this, Ajimu actually has an ability to create a Universe under her "BOSS" ability spam. 

      Which would also imply that EoS Medaka can via copying her ability, and possibly Hanten.

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    • So have all the profiles been edited yet?

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    • Not yet Julian. I believe when Lapitus wakes up

      he will be finishing these before returning to correct any olds ones he already did.

      Kamome TsurubamiNamanie NienamiJoutou KotobukiKakegae YuzurihaMunakata Kei

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    • Note for Lapitus when Medaka profile is opened again. I believe its necessary there be an edit on her weakness. I noticed one of the weakness is out of place on her profile concerning "The End".

      If you noticed underneath "All Fiction" description you see this "And a portion of Ajimu's quadrillion skills, of which she has demonstrated one hundred Trample Skills. However, The End does have its limits; Medaka cannot learn skills that exceed her physical limits, and she is unable to stop herself from learning an Abnormality when she experiences it. She is also unable to learn styles." <-- The part describing Medaka's ability weakness should be taken out and sent up to the weakness spot on her page. 

      So, the final draft under "All Fiction" description should be Abnormality Note: a portion of Ajimu's quadrillion skills, of which she has demonstrated one hundred Trample Skills.

      The final draft for the weakness spot can say Medaka is naive and overly trusting. She is unable to copy powers that are word-based/literary styles. Medaka's Abnormality known as The End cannot copy raw strength of an individuals body in order to exceed her own physical limitations. (For example, if she’s not strong enough to lift a box, and someone walks by who is strong enough to lift a box, she couldn’t just copy their strength by watching them lift the box. The exception to this, of course, is if they are using an ability or skill that boosts their physical capabilities.) Also, Medaka' 'is unable to stop herself from learning an Abnormality when she experiences it.

      I will be on the lookout for more render images for every character that doesn't have one yet. 

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    • Why is everyone getting 2-C? Isn't All-Fiction Causality and Concept Manipilation based and not destructive? Isn't Kumagawa well known for being a consumate liar and an unreliable source? Aren't cosmic-tier upgrades based on statements alone frowned upon?

      Why are we taking the whole quadrillion skills gag seriously?

      Also apologize if this sounds rude, but about 75% of this thread is people not understanding what Transduality is and wanting to make Aijimu, a character with 0 quantifiable feats other than busting a star, and who is explictely a gag character who is beaten because of the plot literally, to High 1-B or 1-A.

      This puts heavy doubts on the whole rest of the upgrades.

      I see that a lot of people are being very incapable of properly interpreting the series and taking things meant as jokes or meta-commentary or gags as literal. 

      The Hero is not a real ability, and as the OP describes it it is being treaten as a "I beat everyone because I'm the protagonist" NLF bullshit. Which doesn't fly in this wiki.

      I am actually shocked that people are trying to scale people to Ajimu, a character that has no power level and is just a giant meta-joke, ignoring that the whole reason people affect her and she loses is "They are the heroes and she is the villain" and treating them as actual feats.

      Medaka Box is simply not suited for Vs Debates due to the fact that it is not a self-contained story but rather a giant joke about manga and shounen action tropes and cliches.

      In other words: Do you have proof that All-Fiction is 2-C other than Kumagawa's word? If not, all the upgrades need to be reverted. Look up Occam's Razor and Carl Sagan's statement about evidence.

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    • Hitchens' razor applies here; I strongly agree with Matt on this one for now. The most logical rating to me seems to be Unknown, at least until more evidence is provided.

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    • Well, I think that Kumagawa was not the one who stated that All-Fiction can reduce all of reality to nothingness, and he did erase the actual concept of colour, so that seemed to back it up, but I suppose that you have a point.

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    •   Loading editor
    • Okay. Well, this is an extreme over-the-top metafiction manga, so I suppose that we took the statements literally, which may have been inappropriate.

      Regardless, as far as I understand, the theory of narrative causality working to ensure victory for the protagonists is constantly treated as a real tangible force within this series.

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    • I mean, yeah. But that can't be applied to a Vs Profile as that's quite clearly a NLF that doesn't work under how Vs. Threads are set, in neutral universes and whatnot.

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    • Well, it is a valid power for Medaka and Iihiko, but it obviously cannot be activated during versus threads.

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    • What I think it that it doesn't count as a power in a traditional sense, it is more the giant meta-nature of the series.

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    • So, what specifically do you think you be changed in the Medaka Box profiles, and is anybody willing to handle it?

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    • I think the 2-C ratings are unfounded. And we definitely shouldn't give the characters the ability to beat stronger people via being the protagonist.

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    • Okay, but that seemed to be the entire point of Iihiko. He was just a physical brute of limited strength, but still killed Najimi with a rubber band, simply due to having the protagonist ability to an extreme degree.

      I actually wrote a fanfiction story long ago in which the main villain had the same power.

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    • are you saying Plot Manipulation is not a legit power?

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    • ajimu "a character with no power level" lul ajimu confirmed for human level

      I agree that ajimu is only human level with saitama level wank and is just a nomal school girl that makes V signs and troll faces

      she also totally didnt exist in a void of nothing waiting for something to exist besides her (casual 5D) and then casually tank the big bang (3D)

      https://i.imgur.com/sYQOq1j.jpg

      definitely only looks like a star level to me especially with that create a universe skill



      PS: ajimu is a parody character not a gag character they are two different things

      arale is a gag character (farting to the moon/breaking manga panels)

      ajimu is a parody character



      World Globe Tour (地球一周弾丸旅行, Wārudo Gurōbu Tsuā): Unlimited range skill.[155]

      Baby Planet (生まれたての宇宙, Beibī Puranetto): Create a universe skill.[147]

      Infunity Quest (無人造, Infuniti Kuesuto): Control the infinite skill.[147]

      Spec Over (過身様ごっこ, Supekku ōbā): Become God skill.[147]

      Life Zero (無効脛, Raifu Zero): Ajimu can nullify any skill she desires, even Medaka's The End.

      Hundred Gauntlets (手のひら孵し, Handoreddo Gantoretto): A skill that reverses causality.[93] Kumagawa claims that Ajimu's powers were god-like, and states that his Minus, All Fiction, was born from what she gave him.

      Alibi Block (腑罪証明, Aribai Burokku): Described as a gentle skill by Ajimu, she can appear wherever and whenever she wants, including physical locations such as: in a locked room, in space, in heaven, or in hell, as well as metaphysical places such as: inside a dream, inside a heart, or even inside people.

      Manual Memory (模範記憶, Manyuaru Memori): Know every answer skill.[147]

      Humor Contrast (無様な背比べ, Yūmoa Kontorasuto): Be stronger than the enemy skill.[147]

      Auto Fumble (失態失敗, ōto Fanburu): Make no mistakes skill.[147]

      Time Bunny (時感作用, Taimu Banī): Manipulate time skill.[147]

      (次元喉果, Hasukī Boisu Dimenshon): Cross dimensions skill.[147]

      Beginner's Hard Luck (たどたどしい拳, Bigināzu Hādo Rakku): Make defense impossible skill.[110]

      Plot Fight (知識の方向, Purotto Faito): Predict the opponent's moves skill.[110]

      Miss Anger Stand (奇想憤慨, Misu Angā Sutando): Impossible to predict hit skill.[110]

      Service Ace (先出しじゃんけん, Sābisu ēsu): First move skill.[110]

      My Inflation (髪展途上, Mai Infurēshon): The stronger the enemy is, the stronger the user is skill.[110]

      Exciting Memory (人生経験段, Ekisaitingu Memorī): Use all previous opponent's techniques skill.[110]

      Lost Password (帰路消失, Rosuto Pasuwādo): Turn enemy back to level one skill.[147] This is noted to be a cruel skill.[151]

      Next Honest (有言実現, Nekusuto Onesuto): Words become reality skill.[147]

      Zero Sum Real (存亡, Zero Samu Riaru): Power over life and death skill.[147]

      Initialize History (歴史的かなり違い, Inisharaizu Hisutorī): Change history skill.[147]

      Deathst Moment (即視, Desuto Mōmento): If you are seen they die skill.[147]

      Every Time Slip Everyday Dream (時系列崩壊道中膝栗毛, Eburi Taimu Surippu Eburi Dei Dorīmu): Time travel skill.[147]

      Metastasis From Head To Tail (全身全霊に転移, Metasutashisu Furomu Heddo Tu Teiru): Take over bodies skill.[147]



      Complete Jungle (全血全能, Konpurīto Janguru): All of creation skill.[147]


      Missile To Pause (身じろぎひとつ, Misuru Tu Pōzu): Stopping movement skill.[110]


      Archery Picking (弓矢に選ばれし経験者達, ācharī Pikkingu): Steal others' experience points skill.

      A Lot Of Hand (多手多様, A Rotto Obu Hando): Slashing simultaneous omni-directional skill.

      Hard Full Count (三度目の消自棄, Hādo Furu Kaunto): Sealing the opponent's skills after three hits skill.[105]

      Critical Kit (悪化傷, Kuritikaru Kitto): Transforming scrapes to fatal wounds skill.[105]

      One's Necro (一刀骸, Wanzu Nekuro): Removing openings skill.[105]

      Critical Five (五感性, Kuritikaru Faibu): Stealing the opponent's senses skill.[110]

      Ad-Balloon Attack (一方的な一撃, Ado Barūn Atakku): Impossible to counterattack skill.[110]

      Noble (歯擦無し, Nōburu): Impossible to miss skill.[110]

      Illegal (禁じ手, Irīgaru): Technique sealing skill.[110]

      Route Selection (足しげく通う, Rūto Serekushon): Instant movement skill.[110]

      I Can Cancel (私だけは待ったあり, Ai Kyan Kyanseru): Cancel an attack that has happened before skill.[110] This skill is noted to be particularly unfair.[120]

      Strong Story (強い語り手, Sutorongu Sutōrī): Strength governing skill.[122]

      My Speed (自我速度, Mai Supido): Speed governing skill.[122]

      Boneless Farm (動物のいない農場, Bonresu Fāmu): Remove bones skill.

      Pray Have Hope (絶望から至る病, Pure Habu Hōpu): Despair skill.

      Friendly Neighbor Green (隣の芝なきって本当に青い, Furendorī Neibā Gurīn): Jealousy skill.

      Seven Doubt (七度尋ねて人を信じろ, Sebun Dauto): Doubt skill.

      Triple Terrible (恐るべき大人達, Toripuru Teriburu): Fear skill.[128]

      Past Promise (思い違い, Pasuto Puromisu): Fabricate a memory skill.

      Very Hungry (腹一匁, Berī Hangurī): Feeling of hunger skill.[128]

      Crystal Edge (嫌割者, Kurisutaru Ejji): Become hated by everyone skill.

      Own Goal (自殺典, Oun Gōru): Instigate suicide skill.[128]

      Old Cold Whip (老体に無知打つ, ōrudo Kōrudo Wippu): Deprive of knowledge skill.[128]

      Qualia Quality (想作の質, Kuoria Kuoriti): Make consciousness nonexistent skill.[128]

      Humachine Error (思考停止性問題, Hyūmashin Erā): Unable to think skill.

      Dislike (愛逆転, Disuraiku): Hate what you like skill.[128] This skill is noted to be "too much of a demon", likely because of its cruel nature.[132]

      Lonely Wedding Party (死ぬときは一人, 生きるときも一人, Ronrī Uedingu Pātī): Loneliness skill.[128]

      Custom Nine (悪癖九年, Kasutamu Nain): Grant a bad habit skill.[128]

      Out Of Simulation (想定の趣味, Auto Obu Shumirēshon): Grant bad taste skill.[128]

      Shining Shining (白日の下に周知の事実, Shainingu Shainingu): Everything is embarrassing skill.[128]

      Transport Plan (命令配達人, Toransupōto Puran): Control fate skill.[147]

      Portable Soul (吸魂植物, Pōtaburu Souru): Absorb souls skill.[147]

      Professional Hibit (火器厳禁, Purofesshonaru Hibitto): Bullet nullifier skill.[155]

      Most Love (愛の大掌, Mosuto Rabu): Transferring damage to one's loved ones skill.[105]

      Door To Door (口区間, Doa To Doa): An ability which allows Ajimu to "travel through time" by bringing herself and others into the dream world where they appear at different stages in their lives.

      Parasite Seeing (欲視力, Parasaito Shīingu): Ajimu had an enhanced vision that granted her the ability to see what others saw through their own eyes. This also allowed her to see how others view the world and understand how they think.






      Exhibition Match (間違いなく放火, Ekishibijon Macchi): Fire governing skill.[122]

      Water Body Slam (水肢体, Wōtā Bodi Suramu): Water governing skill.[122]

      Bolt Leg (千脚万雷, Boruto Reggu): Lightning governing skill.[122]

      Window Shocking (風の吹くまま, Uindou Shokkingu): Wind governing skill.[122]

      Heaven Is Not Heaven (業苦楽情土, Hevun Izu Notto Hevun): Earth governing skill.[122]

      Flower Bad (人生花逆理, Furawā Baddo): Flower governing skill.[122]

      Dark Elbow (闇夜に肘鉄砲, Dāku Erubō): Darkness governing skill.[122]

      Sabotage Beam (怠るの光, Sabotāju Bīmu): Light governing skill.[122]

      Spring Grocery (春の食罪, Supuringu Gurossarī): Spring governing skill.[122]

      Noisy Summer Beetle (夏の虫氷を笑う, Noijī Samā Bītoru): Summer governing skill.[122]

      Lonely Autumn (秋の独善, Ronrī ōtamu): Autumn governing skill.[122]

      Winter Generalist (冬の脳漿軍, Uintā Jenerarisuto): Winter governing skill.[122]

      Time Out (時間体, Taimu Auto) : Night governing skill.[122]

      Hospital Genome (疾患護, Hosupitaru Genomu): Illness governing skill.[122]

      Ground Sound (喉響曲不幸和音, Guraundo Saundo): Sound governing skill.[122]

      Nitrogen Breath (窒息死, Nitorogen Buresu): Nitrogen governing skill.[122]

      Sensational Hair (破天荒な髮型, Sensēshonaru Hea): Weather governing skill.[122]

      Hard Luck Store (頭薬物, Hādo Rakku Sutoa): Poison governing skill.[122]

      Dry Sauna (温湿口花, Dorai Sauna): Humidity governing skill.[122]

      Gravito (躯重力, Gurabito): Gravity governing skill.[122]

      Grip Chaos (大把乱, Gurippu Kaosu): Wave governing skill.[122]

      Maniac Curtain (人間の羽衣, Maniakku Kātan): Cloth governing skill.[122]

      Emotional Turning (屈折した愛情, Emōshonaru Tāningu): Reflection governing skill.[122]

      Shadow Step (影踏み, Shadou Suteppu): Shadow governing skill.[122]

      Cinderella Syndrome (配下振りの娘, Shinderera Shindorōmu): Ash governing skill.[122]

      Mist Sister (霧霧妹 or 霧々妹, Misuto Shisutā): Fog governing skill.[122]

      Painter Contest (芸術家の審美眼, Peintā Kontesuto): Picture governing skill.[122]

      Wallpaper (細胞壁, Wōrupēpā): Barrier governing skill.[122]

      Alcohol Sand (三々駆動, Arukōru Sando): Sand governing skill.[122]

      Free For Hole (落齢穴, Furī Fōru Hōru): Hole governing skill.[122]

      Monster Red (血未魍魎, Monsutā Reddo): Blood governing skill.[122]

      Muscle Collection (公募筋, Massuru Korekushon): Germ governing skill.[122]

      Magnet Streamer (取っ手おきの網, Magunetto Sutorīmā): Magnet governing skill.[122]

      Golden Cloud (雲の上の浮遊層, Gōruden Kuraudo): Gold governing skill.[122]

      Silver Opinion (二番手を吟じる, Shirubā Opinion): Silver governing skill.[122]

      Emergence Copper (器の中の胴体着陸, Emājensu Koppā): Copper governing skill.[122]

      Death To Sky (破壊身空, Desu to Sukai): Sky governing skill.[122]

      Sky True (真空癇, Sukai Turu): Vacuum governing skill.[122]

      Sun Sloshing (指外線, San Surosshingu): Sun governing skill.[122]

      Polardigm Shift (目印ずらし, Poradaimu Shifuto): Polaris governing skill.[122]

      Mother Mars Ship (宇宙戦火星号, Mazāzu Māzu Shippu): Mars governing skill.[122]

      Nine Pluto (王座奪還, Nain Purūto): Pluto governing skill.[122]

      Meteor Neck (隕咳落下, Meteo Nekku): Meteor governing skill.[122]

      My Sea Chip (大海を片手で塞ぐ, Mai Shī Chippu): Sea governing skill.[122]

      Swamp Girl (沼女, Suwanpu Gāru): Swamp governing skill.[122]

      Riverse (身川死, Ribāsu): River governing skill.[122]

      Emperor Stone (石血帝, Enparā Sutōn): Stone governing skill.[122]

      Hang Up Jewel (抱石箱, Hangu Appu Jueru): Gem governing skill.[122] It is noted that this skill has a more limited application than the stone governing skill.[123]

      Ouroboros Connect (意外な連鎖, Uroborosu Konekuto): Calamity governing skill.[122]

      Angle Of Opera (零距離視射劇, Anguru Obu Opera): Angle governing skill.[122] It is noted that if an attack is delivered at point-blank range, the angle will be zero degrees.[124]

      Acht Acht Dessin (発破六重死, Ahato Ahato Dessan): Explosion governing skill.[122]

      Skin Forest (人肌の温もり, Sukin Fōresuto): Forest governing skill.[122]

      Average Crying Night (八十八夜の泣きにしもあらず, Aberēji Kuraingu Naito): Constellation governing skill.[122]

      Treasure Tasting (味発見の財宝, Torejā Teisutingu): Flavor governing skill.[122]

      Key World (世界の鍵, Kī Wārudo): Key governing skill.[122]

      Hyper String Theory (超舌弦理論, Haipā Sutoringu Seorī): Thread governing skill.[122]

      North Breath (北風の吹き替え, Nōsu Buresu): Voice governing skill.[122]

      Drink Range (嚥距離恋愛, Dorinku Renji): Distance governing skill.[122]

      Overreaction (拒絶犯脳, ōbāriakushon): Chemical reaction governing skill.[122]

      Battle Smell (芳しい両拳, Batoru Sumeru): Scent governing skill.[122]

      Deep Sink (深淵で水泳大会, Dīpu Shinku): Depth governing skill.[122]

      Nutrino Compliance (味覚認物体, Nyūtorino Konpuraiansu): Nutrition governing skill.[122]

      Stereogram (二重視点, Sutereoguramu): Roughness governing skill.[122]

      Deathtrian Deck (死の歩道橋, Desutorian Dekki): Path governing skill.[122]

      Reading Magic (他愛ない読み聞かせ, Rīdingu Majikku): Incantation governing skill.[122]

      Animal User (盲従使い, Animaru Yūzā): Animal governing skill.[122]

      Mirror Effect (魔手鏡, Mirā Efekuto): Mirror governing skill.[122]

      Strong Story (強い語り手, Sutorongu Sutōrī): Strength governing skill.[122]

      Delicate Delete (弱い殺し手, Derikēto Derīto): Weakness governing skill.[122]

      My Speed (自我速度, Mai Supido): Speed governing skill.[122]

      Active Talk (活舌性, Akutibu Tōku): Activity governing skill.[122]

      Readability (読舌, Rīdabiriti): Letter governing skill.[122]

      Most Impact (心証膨大, Mosuto Inpakuto): Size governing skill.[122]

      Tektite (硝子体, Tekutaito): Glass governing skill.[122]

      Nearby See-Through (見えなくてもそばにいる, Niabai Shīsurū): Spirit governing skill.[122]

      Pendulum Heart (揺れ動く心, Penjuramu Hāto): Vibration governing skill.[122]

      Easy Chorus (即興合唱, ījī Kōrasu): Song governing skill.[122]

      Rainbow Lamp (燈虹彩, Reinbō Ranpu): Color governing skill.[122]

      Play Smoke (遊煙, Purei Sumōku): Smoke governing skill.[122]

      Number Foot (心の足し算, Nanbā Futto): Number governing skill.[122]

      Death Voice Navigation (咆哮音痴, Desu Boisu Nabigēshon): Direction governing skill.[122]

      Selfish Requester (困ってなくても神頼み, Serufisshu Rikuesutā): Prayer governing skill.[122]

      Fantasy Illusion (幻の幻覚, Fantajī Iryūjon): Illusion governing skill.[122]

      Wise Man Collection (哲学者の蒐集癖, Waizu Man Korekushon): Knowledge governing skill.[122]

      Magma Stone (火山の意志, Maguma Sutōn): Pyroclastic flow governing skill.[122] It is speculated that this skill is particularly flashy.[125]

      Vinyl House Survival (家中の悲働, Binīru Hausu Sabaibaru): House governing skill.[122]

      Big Name Dreamer (夢人, Biggu Nēmu Dorīmā): Dream governing skill.[122]

      Choke Board (息止まり, Chōku Bōdo): Wall governing skill.[122]

      Secret Research (情報操査, Shīkuretto Risāchi): Information governing skill.[122]

      Window Gaze (破目殺しの窓, Uindou Geizu): Window governing skill.[122]

      Blood Bus Stop (血管戸当て, Buraddo Basu Sutoppu): Entrance/Exit governing skill.[122]

      Turning Point (点火吹雪, Tāningu Pointo): Point governing skill.[122]

      Slow Line (投降線, Surō Rain): Line governing skill.[122]

      Neck Ring Hold (首輪をもって貴しとなす, Nekku Ringu Hōrudo): Ring governing skill.[122] It is noted that this skill has a cruel name.[126]

      Gemini Impression (一印性双生児, Jeminainpuresshon): Stamp governing skill.[122]

      Unfixed Future (未来な恋えられる, Anfikkusudo Fyūchā): Future governing skill.[122]

      Magical Life (ある魔法の一生, Majikaru Raifu): Magic governing skill.[122] The presence of this skill makes the necessity of the other magic skills questionable.[127]

        Loading editor
    • Your first mistake was thinking that existing in a void is 5-D

      Your second mistake was thinking listing all of Ajimu's known skills would achieve anything.

      Your third mistake was expecting anyone to read them.

        Loading editor
    • Monarch Laciel wrote:
      Your first mistake was thinking that existing in a void is 5-D

      Your second mistake was thinking listing all of Ajimu's known skills would achieve anything.

      Your third mistake was expecting anyone to read them.

      I agree that existing above the concept of time and space and existing 3 trillion years before anything else is only a star level feat


      ajimu was left unknown and some other characters were powerscaled to ajimu/medaka when medaka was confirmed multiversal or went to another universe


      I do not understand where the issue is with these changes? you would have to be very biased to disagree

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    • ^

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    • I kind of disagree with something from Part 4; more precisely with Kumagawa being able to spawn screws inside of people. 

      Even without pseudo time erase he is able move too fast for a human eye (his speed is maximum comparable with Medaka). With Jakugou he just threw screw at her without lookng at her with too fast enough speed (most likely via All-fiction) for her to notice that. She is a normal human after all even with her superability to manipulate the air.

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    • Wuta420
      Wuta420 removed this reply because:
      a
      09:04, February 24, 2018
      This reply has been removed
    • Wuta420 wrote:

      I agree that existing above the concept of time and space and existing 3 trillion years before anything else is only a star level feat

      Technically speaking, nothing in there is an AP feat at all.

      And you didn't specify "above the concept of time and space" in the comment I was responding to. You said "exist in a void of nothing waiting for something else to exist besides her". Which is not a 5-D feat.

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    • Antvasima wrote: Well, I think that Kumagawa was not the one who stated that All-Fiction can reduce all of reality to nothingness, and he did erase the actual concept of colour, so that seemed to back it up, but I suppose that you have a point.

      Erasing the concept of colour also basically made everything colourless meaningless, according to the scans provided. The statement has the range to affect all of existence. It's primary usage is erasing. There was a statement regarding it being able to erase all of existence. I don't see a problem here. The only thing I question is whether or not All-Fiction is the same for everyone. Nonetheless, I really don't think that the manga being a parody should affect the legitimacy of a statement that has basis and is relevant.

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    • I agree with Matthew. Also even if we take the fact that it was declared that it can destroy the "world", That makes us think that he is referring to the entire reality? It could also be just the planet Earth.

      There are hundreds characters in the wiki that claim to be able to destroy the WORLD and not classifies them as universe level or multi-universe level, only planet level, and only happens if the declaration is shown to be consistent and not be hyperbole. The context of the statement is rather vague since there is nothing to indicate that it referred to the entire reality in that scene.


      Also Kumagawa erase color even appears in the manga? I don't remember it. If it is that my memory is failing me someone would be so kind to pass a scan. If it is not appearing in the manga how do we know that the anime is canon?

      Pd: Sorry for my bad english 

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    • Colour already doesn't exist in the manga. XD

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    • I think I can give some input here:

      the thing I could agree with is "at most Low 2-C" for All fiction users and that's supposing that All fiction's feat of erasing the concept of color is universal.

      Why Low 2-C? 

      1) All fiction has been shown to erase time. It affects space-time.

      2) If we assume that feat to be legit universal scale, we have universal range.

      3) Universal range + Space-Time erasure = Low 2-C in my book.

      As you see Im not using any statements.

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    • Well, I am neutral regarding this, but if we return Najimi, Medaka, Kumagawa, and Hanten to unknown ratings, somebody still has to carry out the changes.

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    • I think "Unknown, at most Low 2-C" is somewhat agreeable. And this is only for All Fiction.

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    • I think "at most" is a stretch, considering Ajimu Najimi is heavily implied to be stronger than that. And Pachi, All-Fiction had 2-C range, not just Low 2-C range. That's why the profiles are currently 2-C.

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    • I dont remember Kumagawa ever affecting 2 space continuums in their totality. Like, at all.

      FEATS > STATEMENTS.

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    • Super Saiyan God Julian wrote:

      Medaka-box-3966207

      Proof that alternate universes exist in Medaka Box

      Another universe exists, and it was stated to affect all of existence or something like that.

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    • A few things:

      1) Multi-Universal Range =/= 2-C power. If not every 40K Psyker would be 2-C.

      2) Citation on All-Fiction erasing the concept of time?

      3) Scans for All-Fiction erasing the concept of color?

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    • So you are basing everything on that one statement? Noice.

      Feats > Statements.

      Kumagawa has only shown universal range at most.

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    • Kumagawa erased the concept of colour in the anime series.

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    • Matthew Schroeder wrote:
      A few things:

      1) Multi-Universal Range =/= 2-C power. If not every 40K Psyker would be 2-C.

      2) Citation on All-Fiction erasing the concept of time?

      3) Scans for All-Fiction erasing the concept of color?

      1) When it applies to a causality erasing power, it pretty much is.

      2) I need to look for it, but iirc its done by Kumagawa during his first appearence.

      3) go to 4:30

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    • That video is unable to be viewed in my country due to copyright.

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    • I thought we only accepted the manga as canon.

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    • Matthew Schroeder wrote:
      I thought we only accepted the manga as canon.

      Iirc the events on that ova are referenced in the manga and it fits the continuity/is not contradicted by any future event.

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    • But that occured in the anime series which is an adaptation of the manga.

      Also, I've found the scene:

      https://youtu.be/4pEavNhRd70?t=275

      It is impressive, but I don't think it is Universal per say, or else every Concept Hax would be ranked as universal. It is not like Madoka where undoing or creating a concept rewrites the entire multiverse by consequence.

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    • @Matt

      As I said before, the "At most Low 2-C" would be only if we assume that he affected the whole universe with his ability given that he can also erase time with that same skill.

      I don't agree with giving them 2-C rating based on "If I lose control of my ability, all of existence will be turned to nothing". If Kumagawa had any feat affecting 2 or more universes, then we'd be talking. As it stands know, there is no enough proof for 2-C.

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    • 4828906-0262094201-37112

      Not sure if this is the one @PaChi2.

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    • That just seems like minor Time Manipulation, localized Time Nullification and stuff.

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    • Super Saiyan God Julian wrote:
      4828906-0262094201-37112

      Not sure if this is the one @PaChi2.

      That should do, I think.

      The attack was instantaneous, he stated that he had used All Fiction.

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    • Matthew Schroeder wrote:
      That just seems like minor Time Manipulation, localized Time Nullification and stuff.

      Kumagawa erases things. He doesnt manipulate things. He erases.

      Something like that guy in JoJo.

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    • Well, I think that just placing Kumagawa, Najimi, Hanten, and Medaka at unknown again makes sense then.

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    • I mean, can I see more than one page of the supposed time erasure? Even just the chapter number would be good.

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    • @Matthew, this is sort of Kumagawa's ability-


      http://powerlisting.wikia.com/wiki/Nonexistence

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    • Powerlisting is wanked.

      Kumagawa never erased a concept. EE based on causality =/= EE based on concepts. He erased the electromagnetic spectrum at most. Theres no statement about concept stuff except for Medaka being able to help the combat between the concepts of Evil and Good

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    • SchroKatze wrote:
      Powerlisting is wanked.

      Kumagawa never erased a concept. EE based on causality =/= EE based on concepts. He erased the electromagnetic spectrum at most. Theres no statement about concept stuff except for Medaka being able to help the combat between the concepts of Evil and Good

      Neven erased a concept? So we are going to ignore the fact that he erased colors in OVA and Zenkichi's existence in the manga?

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    • Latter isn’t a concept.

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    • The real cal howard wrote:
      Latter isn’t a concept.

      The existence isn't the concept?

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    • Erasing colors can be both erasing the properties of light and erasing the concept. But to be "conceptual", it needs a statement.

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    • Erasing the existence of something is just erasing the thing itself, they are just representations of their concepts. Erasing the very concept of something will erase said thing too.

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    • Well, can 2-C be removed?

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    • Matthew Schroeder wrote:
      Well, can 2-C be removed?

      I can agree with this.

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    • SchroKatze wrote:
      Erasing colors can be both erasing the properties of light and erasing the concept. But to be "conceptual", it needs a statement.

      He didnt erase anything light-based.

      He erased "colors".

      They didnt go blind/stated that light was affected. Kumagawa erasing colors is one of the most blatant conceptual erasing feats I have seen.

      "Colors dont exist anymore". If it was light based, the other guy could have used "white" or "black", but he couldnt because "Color" was not a thing.

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    • Yeah but erasing the time it took for an action to be made and erasing a color isn't really Low 2-C.

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    • Matthew Schroeder wrote:
      Yeah but erasing the time it took for an action to be made and erasing a color isn't really Low 2-C.

      I wont struggle for Low 2-C. I don't think Low 2-C is justified enough by feats. That's why "at most" was suggested. And I won't even argue for that any more, Im fine with them being Unknown.

      This is the equivalent of pushing for 2-A Hades >_>

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    • i guess we're just gonna call shenanigans on his claim about AF erasing all of reality?

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    • Matthew Schroeder wrote: Well, can 2-C be removed?

      I suppose so.

      Is anybody willing to check through the Medaka Box pages and carry out the changes?

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    • After lunch I will.

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    • Presumably that he can supposedly control the Earth's rotation.

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    • Antvasima wrote:
      Presumably that he can supposedly control the Earth's rotation.

      That's High 6-A unless Im missing something?

      Accelerator

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    • Controlling the Earth's rotation is High 6-A I think. that's the KE of the Earth spinning.

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    • Matthew Schroeder
      Matthew Schroeder removed this reply because:
      16:04, February 24, 2018
      This reply has been removed
    • Rotational energy of Earth is Moon level

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orders_of_magnitude_(energy)

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    • Okay. Then his statistics should be adjusted. It is supposed to be an in-joke about that his character was extremely self-centered when first introduced. I.e. the Earth spins around him.

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    • Eh, if that's a joke then perhaps should be removed.

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    • Matthew Schroeder wrote:
      Eh, if that's a joke then perhaps should be removed.

      The joke is that a self-centered character can make the Earth spin around him. Doesn't mean he cannot.

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    • However, do we know that he can manipulate it to the extent that he can make the earth instantly stop spinning? Manipulation in and of itself can come in different levels, after all.

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    • Wow, seems like I need to play catch up. 

      Ok, so by the looks of it. All recent changes for characters 2-C input have been switched back to unknown due to the lack of not enough evidence. I won't put any further input than what was stated above. 

      However, I will be putting input on these blocks. 

      1. Kumagawa is known for being a loser in the series. The only lias he has ever been known was during his Medaka's childhood and bad relationship with him. The second time was during his encounter with Jakago from the Student Council when he decided to change his mind of after letting her escape. Other than Kumagawa trademark is known for being a loser, not a liar. He becomes a heavy reliable source after joining Medaka's team. 

      2. The quadrillion skills are legit, though Ajimu only showed/described around the 800 to 900 marking.

      3. In regard to the scaling, it was mostly towards one character to another, not particular Ajimu. Like pointed out by Jordanbairdcreaturemaster97 that each character can be compared to almost one another in the physical nature, but it is hax, intellect, and techniques, are what decide fights in the end. Overall, the people pushing for the content revision was just following the same format of scaling Dragon Ball Characters on this wiki are drastically known for doing. Which goes Scaling > Statements > Feats. 

      4. Final ending point, I have no problem with them being unknown, but to say they can't fight or win against other characters of a higher tier due to AP difference is false. I mean isn't the entire point of this Thread:1087383 here to show unless a certain character has particular hax resistance they aren't guaranteed victory. I still stand by Ryukama final statement along with everyone else on the thread, which by majority rules shows that hax can help win a fight against characters in a higher Tier. Medaka Box is a verse known for there insane different types of haxes. 

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    • Mr. Common Sense wrote:

      1. Kumagawa is known for being a liar in the series.  

      I might be reading that wrong, but did you mean to say he is not a liar? The rest of your statement seems to imply that's what you meant.

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    • No, I meant that we have no reason to assume he was being accurate or telling the truth.

      @Common Sense

      1. He still lies, and we have 0 reason to accept his word as true without evidence, specially for something so absurd like an attack that can erase all of existence.

      2. Even the 800 skills she hasn't shown. The endless lists of skills are gags.

      3 and 4. I agree that Medaka wins through hax and stuff, but Ajimu losing because of narrative causality is a joke.

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    • @Jordanbairdcreaturemaster97 

      Yes, I meant  to say he is not a liar, but more of a loser. I made a typo, thank you for catching that. I edited my comment.

      @Matthew Schroeder 

      I think it can be heavily accurate due to the fact he has never lied about his abilities in the series but more of common interactions with characters. I say he be unreliable about his abilities if there was some point in the series where, All Fiction was shown to do the opposite of any statements. However, All Fiction has yet failed in that category. I will take it that All Fiction didn't show enough evidence for that 2-C range off statements only, unfortunately by these wiki's rules. 

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    • 1. I agree, except for Anshin'in.

      2. I also brought that up some time ago, so I obviously agree.

      3. I'm not sure about that, some characters (like Medaka and Hinokage) are often stated to be stronger than the others. 

      4. I'm not sure about the first one, he could've just erased time and impaled her istantly. I agree with the rest.

      5. I agree. 

      Considering that Kumagawa knew about Anshin'in's pocket dimension (the classroom) and still said he could erase the entire reality, 2-C All Fiction could make sense, but I'm still not convinced. If it's accepted, at the very least he should have a "possibly" before it.

      Anshin'in should be "Unknown, likely at least 2-C (due to her nigh-omniscience she probably knew about other universes, and she still stated that she was able to "do anything"), possibly much higher (has a skill that allows her to trascend dimensions)".

      Bookmaker scales to Anshin'in due to being the only skill in history capable to affect her.

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    • Erasing a pocket dimension is not 2-C

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    • I thought that erasing a low 2-C space-time and a smaller space-time at the same time could qualify, my bad.

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    • I dont think you know the difference between a parody character and a gag character

      ajimus 13 quadrillions skills are not a gag they are to be taken seriously

      they were used during serious confrontations and the scenes had nothing to do with a gag

      a databook was even released giving descriptions of her skills

      arale is a gag character

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    • @Wuta

      I know, thank you very much.

      No it isn't. The whole statement is a joke, she never used any of these skills.

      Arale has more feats than all of Medaka Box combined.

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    • so can you please explain the scene where she takes out the false suitors? were they just humoring her and pretending to lose?

      https://i.imgur.com/awZstMF.jpg

      also if she didnt do anything why was the main cast acting impressed?

      why did kumagawa say that shonen jump characters pale in comparison to her?

      how was she able to give zenkichi parasite seeing if the ability doesnt exist?

      how was she able to use door to door if it doesnt exist?

      mirror juvenile?

      she has displayed abilities plenty of times in the manga...

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    • Point went over your head, so let me make it clear:

      Using a dozen something abilities in the whole manga dos not mean she has quadrillions of abilities. She doesn't.

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    • so why was it stated numerous times in a serious context that she does?

      did you retcon the author of medaka box? I never knew you wrote it

      do you have any proof she doesnt have them?

      sounds to me like you are butthurt and just dont want a fictional character to have a certain tier of strength so you think your word means more than the author lol

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    • The author of Medaka Box has zero saying here.

      Do you have proof that she does? Burden of proof is on you.

      And more insults now? Nice.

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    • WoG means nothing if it contradicts feats

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    • burden of proof? I can direct you to any of the medaka box scans with her demonstrating the abilities or the fucking official databook

      you have 0 proof and reject canon material

      what the fuck  gives you the right to reject canon matrial and lore of the story just b/c you dont want a character to be strong? why do you think  you have more authority than the author?

      why are you only a biased downplayer in medakaverse and not  the other characters on this site?

      do you like throwing your admin status around to bully people/verses?

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    • WoG means nothing if it contradicts feats. Death of the author is very commonplace here.

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    • I think that Unknown or Varies is the safest rating we can go with. The supporting details can be described in her AP, but unless there is concrete feats then I agree with Matt and Weekly here.

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    • she has 0 feats and evidence of showing any of those powers, and most of them are obvious gags like "Become Pregnant Ability".

      Also, continuing to be disrespectful and appealing to authorial intent. And even on that road I can assure you that the intent was to crack a joke.

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    • Well, I personally think that the quadrillions of skills were intended to be taken literally, but are obviously impossible to prove, as it is impossible to portray them all.

      The theory of narrative causality/the protagonist always wins was also treated as a very literal concept within Medaka Box.

      I agree about that the exact tiers are uncertain, but let's not treat the series unfairly either.

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    • @Antvasima

      I can agree to that. It is probably literal but not applicable to a Vs.Wiki.

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    • Well, it is not applicable to versus matchups, but it is certainly applicable to a character statistics wiki's powers and abilities sections.

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    • Perhaps "UnknownVaries" with an appropriate reasoning would work best?

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    • Just "unknown" is probably fine.

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    • Sleeps on thread

      Iap sleeps on thread to

      >Everything happens

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    • When you take a break from the internet for a day and cuz your family went on vacation and suddenly people jump on your thread and start downgrading stuff before you even finish upgrading the first stuff

      Only got on this thread cuz someone pm'd me to let me know stuff was going down

      someone wanna fill me in on why stuff is suddenly being downgraded

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    • "We don't take gags seriously"

      http://vsbattles.wikia.com/wiki/Tom_Cat

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    • Iapitus The Impaler 

      All 2-C upgrades were dismissed on the notion of not having enough feats. VS battle wiki doesn't verify Statements > Feats unlike Feats > Statements.

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    • @Matthew

      let's address this first. Kumagawa and Medaka are getting 2-C, who tf is everyone. Kumagawa is not really a liar in that sense. He is chaotic but when he lies this is not how he does it. He lies about intentions and shit, but not ever something like this, Show me an example when he has. Sure he lies about what he will and will not do, but never about the nature of his power. The only 2 times he ever specifically lied about the nature of his power was when he very specifically needed the enemy to think it works differently, during his fight with Shiranui, and he lied about the ability to erase what he has already erased, which he moments later said was a lie, and it was again, to gain an advantage over Zenkichi, to have him surrender. So he only lies about his powers when it give him an advantage and he disavouse it later; Kumagawa did neither in this case. In fact in the context of this moment, Kumagawa is dead serious. He is explicitly explaining why he can't use his ability freely, which makes sense. Naze and Zenkichi believe him, so we have no reason to do the same. Kumagawa is the kind of person who would spam his ability all the time if he were able, but this s him explaining why he doesn't. it makes more sense by that universe's internal logic to beliieve him over dismissing it because he lies about other matters.

      the rule is that we do not draw if they are serious or not inherently, nor do we dismiss them outright.

      If you want to step on my claims over the assumptions of others, that is completely non-sensicle. The validity of one of my claims caries no bar on the validity of the others, to apply otherwise is horribly falacious. I never claimed I wanted to upgrade her to such a status, infact if you notice I explicitly didn't want to place her at any tier. I wanted to give her transduality, yes, but I do not think transdualistic characters have to be 1-B or 1-A. Disagreeing on does not mean I missunderstand, infact i can provide counter examples but Ant said to drop it.

      I would say the same to you. I also say that just because a power came from a meta-narative or deconstruction, does not mean they cannot be applied. You also assume that just because something is a joke does not mean it caries very real in universe implications. It is why Toon Force can be a quantifiable thing, and this is no different. I wrote my description of it above to prove that it is quantifiable enough to create an actual description and quantify it. Saying 'The Hero' cannot be applied norm quantified because "Its A Joke" wpiuld be the same as saying Toon Force cannot be applied or quantified because "its a Joke," if there is a difference then explain

      I scaled only to the bar minimum of her power, which is 2-C, and cast that off as soon as other reasoning was found. Book Maker is in no way implied or portraid as a gag power. Kumagawa does not have the same meta protection that other characters have. He also used it on screen on Ajimu in non-joke places. Ajimu even said that Book Maker is one of the few powers that works on her without being a Hero.

      I disagree, actually no, this is not subjective, you are wrong. To say something is not suited for Vs Debating, is flat out wrong. A joke series that deconstructs and makes jokes about shouned tropes and cliches cannot is not fit for Vs Debating? Go tell that to One Punch Man.

      In other words: I do have proof of that All Fiction is 2-C, other than just his words. Context, Other characters believing him, etc. How about you pull up some scans next time or link a page. I know what Occam's razor is, in fact in this context it takes less assumptions put All Fiction at 2-C over dismissing it.

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    • Oh crap I forgot I'm not supposed to do masive quotes like that, my bad

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    • Matthew Schroeder wrote:
      I mean, yeah. But that can't be applied to a Vs Profile as that's quite clearly a NLF that doesn't work under how Vs. Threads are set, in neutral universes and whatnot.


      Every hax has a NLF application to it, of course. Ajimu described her as having a status. Actually, I was gonna recommend we don't use "The Hero" in match ups unless her enemies can counter it or other plot manipulation is at play.

      Ajimu has it as a sort of staus, so it can be applied in vs threads as much as we apply the presence detection negation of gods in dragon ball characters and hax bypass of divinity from Nasuverse characters. Since the ability is applied as something that results from the person's status it should fly here. Let's be consistent about things.

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    • I actually agree with The Hero being a passive plot manipulation making things work out in the character's favour.

      Meta-fictional or not, the scans make it clear that being "The Hero" is an in-universe thing. And it's not like we haven't had meta-hax as a thing before .

      Calling it an NLF is also not a reason not to add the ability to the profiles when it's clearly something. Assume it won't work against anyone higher than 3-D or even 4-D depending on where the Tier 2 stuff goes, like all non-physical hax, and call it passive plot/fate manipulation. There, done

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    • WeeklyBattles wrote:
      WoG means nothing if it contradicts feats. Death of the author is very commonplace here.


      with the exception of Explicit reasons like Book Maker or "The Hero," show me feats of her supposed feats contradicting her having these powers.



      Not claiming the powers should be necesarilly quantified, but to say she outright does not have them is something else entirely

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    • Monarch Laciel wrote: Calling it an NLF is also not a reason not to add the ability to the profiles when it's clearly something. Assume it won't work against anyone higher than 3-D or even 4-D depending on where the Tier 2 stuff goes, like all non-physical hax, and call it passive plot/fate manipulation. There, done

      As someone who's read the series recently, I think this seems like the most reasonable line of thinking regarding this ability.

      Iapitus is also completely correct in his description of Kumagawa's status as a liar. There is literally no good reason for him to lie to Naze and Zenkichi, who may I remind everyone are some of the smartest characters in a series about geniuses and prodigies, and who are well-acquainted with Kumagawa's shenanigans and wouldn't believe him if they had any reason to assume he was lying, which they didn't.

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    • Oh and I finished implementing the changes to the physical scaling stats, which are not what is currently in question

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    • @Kami95

      I agree with this guy, especially with 4.

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    • DexWald wrote:
      I kind of disagree with something from Part 4; more precisely with Kumagawa being able to spawn screws inside of people. 

      Even without pseudo time erase he is able move too fast for a human eye (his speed is maximum comparable with Medaka). With Jakugou he just threw screw at her without lookng at her with too fast enough speed (most likely via All-fiction) for her to notice that. She is a normal human after all even with her superability to manipulate the air.


      The screw came from the back, so he didn't merely change it. If Kumagawa wanted to do a rush then he would have appeared behing her, like he usually does. He was obviously not doing his conventional attack. It sounds very unlike Kumagawa to specifically go behind someone, stab them, and then return to the exact same position. iirc no Abnormal or Minus are normal human in stats, I think it was implied they excelled at least somewhat in stats. Also she was the president of a school with a crap ton of abnormals, so I don't think she could have managed that with skills alone

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    • I'm going to sleep for now

      Hopefully I won't come back to wall level downgrades by the time I check this tmrw

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    • Monarch makes a lot of sense here.

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    • Monarch Laciel wrote:
      I actually agree with The Hero being a passive plot manipulation making things work out in the character's favour.

      It isn't plot manipulation. Zenkichis Devil Style is the ability that is created to counter it, which is how he won the elections against Medaka.

      So the Devil Style basically tells us how the protagonist ability works. And it works by the hero just being "really lucky". We know that because the Devil style can counter it by nullifying all coincidence. So it would fall under probability manipulation.

      However if we list that we probably have to give kumagawa the opposite ability, given that he always loosing appears to be the antithesis to the protagonist always winning.

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    • Antvasima wrote: Well, I personally think that the quadrillions of skills were intended to be taken literally, but are obviously impossible to prove, as it is impossible to portray them all.

      The theory of narrative causality/the protagonist always wins was also treated as a very literal concept within Medaka Box.

      I agree about that the exact tiers are uncertain, but let's not treat the series unfairly either.

      ^This.

      totally agreed.

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    • Kuma has the ability... to always lose?

      well shit son

      That can't be right, he's beaten plenty of other people hasn't he?

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    • He always finds a way to call it a loss.

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    • That's an ALF (All-Limits Fallacy)

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    • In Kumagawa's case it seeks to be more an issue of attitude. He is utterly convinced that he cannot win, even though he has done so repeatedly, so he is always miserable.

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    • Antvasima
      Antvasima removed this reply because:
      13:33, February 25, 2018
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    • Ant is correct.

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    • Antvasima
      Antvasima removed this reply because:
      13:33, February 25, 2018
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    • Antvasima
      Antvasima removed this reply because:
      13:34, February 25, 2018
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    • Antvasima
      Antvasima removed this reply because:
      13:34, February 25, 2018
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    • Kepekley23 wrote: That's an ALF (All-Limits Fallacy)

      Did you call me? OvO

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    • Antvasima
      Antvasima removed this reply because:
      13:35, February 25, 2018
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    • Antvasima
      Antvasima removed this reply because:
      13:37, February 25, 2018
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    • Okay. I will delete the messages.

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    • Snip

      His ability is also to nullify the throws of fate. Ajimu explicitly stated this. But this is also Plot-Manipulation-that-functions-nigh-identicaly-to-fate-manipulation, which in these cases usually gets listed as Plot Manipulation. I'm mobile posting right now (also why the formatting of this comment is weird), so I'll grab the scan when I get the chance

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    • Fate can refer to a number of different things, but one possibility is nothing, but that it is what decides the line up of coincidences. Hence the fate manipulation page lists Probabilty Manipulation as a type.

      Given that we know that what the devil style does is eliminate coincidence, nullifying the throws of fate is likely not an additional effect, but the consequence of eliminating luck.



      I also don't think we have any reliable statements that the mechanism behind the hero ability is plot manipulation. We know that they have this ability due to being the hero (typical "ability of the chosen one" scenario), but that only explains where the ability comes from, not how it works.

      Additionally the effect is nothing but probability manipulation so listing it as plot manipulation is just adding vagueness for the sake of making it sound powerful. If anything it should be listed as "Probability Manipulation via Plot Manipulation", but as said I don't think we have reliable statements of plot manipulation.

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    • I also think probability manipulation sounds like the most accurate means of quantifying it. It's an extremely potent form of Prob Manip, but still Prob Manip.

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    • Well, all powers were meaningless against Iihiko, regardless if their scale by far eclipsed his own.

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    • Saying that "Medaka's fate changes to let her win" and saying that "The plot alters Medaka's fate to let her win" is basically the same thing, so it doesn't change much.
      However, since the reason that happens is that she's the main character, it qualifies better as plot manipulation. Furthermore, Anshin'in decided to change the plot to defeat Medaka, rather than alter her fate or probabilities, which further confirms that what made Medaka invincible is not fate manipulation, but plot itself.
      ​​​​​About Devil's Style, every example brought up by Anshin'in (like "The enemy's special attack won't miss a vital area" or "You won't fight from weakest to strongest in a tournament") was a cliche that usually happen to the protagonist, so we should just consider "coincidences" as a cause of plot itself, and "negating coincidences" as negating the plot's influence.

      In short, the plot spins around main characters (which is why they have passive plot manipulation), which causes coincidences to happen, and Devil's Style simply negates them.

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    • I'm fine with passive probability manipulation until I get more scans saying it's plot.

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    • So is anybody willing to provide scans that prove that it is plot manipulation, rather than probability manipulation?

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    • Antvasima wrote: So is anybody willing to provide scans that prove that it is plot manipulation, rather than probability manipulation?

      What do we need for that? I can find scans of Ajimu saying that because she is a minor character she cannot beat someone like medaka (main character) even if she used all of her abilities.

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    • That might be useful, yes.

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    • Iirc she explains that to Zenkichi before introducing Hanten shiranui. The scene when she asks Zenkichi which ability would he need to beat Medaka. I dont remember the chapter, tho.

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    • Alright, let's lay out some scans I got

      First off, forgot to give this scan which actually helps my case of us believing Kumagawa on the universe thing. Even when Kumagawa lied about him being able to bring back Zenkichi's vision (which was to gain a specifc advantage mind you) Naze did not believe him. So this proves she is not so guilible that she would meerly believe everything Kumagawa says, so since she believed him on the universal erasure, this more backs up its validity

      @Antvasima have a made a complelling argument that Kumagawa's word is vable to be Low 2-C or 2-C? (my response to Matt in combo with what I wrote above)

      Found another fact about "The Hero," apparently it is less viable in a free for all. I'm sure there's a meta joke in there somewhere

      Ajimu likens Devil Style to be stepping on the works of other, older, authors and main characters who came before him. This feels like a heavy implication that it does have basis within the story. And on a side note, how exactly does probability manipulation induce PIS? We know it can. If we are going to list it as meer probability manipulation, then we should also list the ability to induce PIS/CIS along with it. I can deel with that, since it ties up the loose ends

      It is definitely plot based, because otherwise this wouldn't have effected the main character status

      And as for the plot proof, Naze states that the ability also nullifies it [The author/the plot] and stops the whims of fate from interfeering with the battle

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    • Since I've finally read all the comments, I'd like to give my opinion about tiers.

      I disagree with 2-C All Fiction for Kumagawa. Although he stated that he can erase the entire reality (and there's no reason to think he lied) there's nothing that suggests that Kumagawa knew about other universes, which means that for him "the entire reality" could just mean his universe and the classroom dimension. If there's any proof that he knew about multiple universes I could agree, but I personally don't remember anything like that. However, I agree with the Low 2-C tier, both because of his statement and for PaChi's reasons (Universal range + able to affect space-time = Low 2-C).


      Medaka's All Fiction should be 20% stronger thanks to The End, but that still doesn't make it 2-C, since the difference beetween a Low 2-C and a 2-C is not quantifiable, therefore Medaka's All Fiction is still Low 2-C (or "at least" Low 2-C).

      However, as I said in a previous comment, there is someone who could get a 2-C upgrade: the non-equals, Ajimu and Hanten. Since Anshin'in is nigh-omniscient and nigh-omnipresent, it makes sense to say that she knew about other universes as well, therefore her statements about "being able to do anything" should make her at least 2-C, possibly much higher (based on her "boss" skills). Hanten should be somewhat comparable to her, which would make him at least 2-C as well.

      This would scale to Bookmaker and "The Hero" (although I'm not sure we can use those for tiers, since it's not AP).


      In short, the tiers would be:

      Kumagawa: Unknown, likely Low 2-C with All Fiction (has universal range and is able to affect the space-time, Kumagawa stated it could erase the entire reality), likely at least 2-C with Bookmaker (sealed Anshin'in for 3 years and was considered the only skill in history capable to affect her ).

      Anshin'in: Unknown, likely at least 2-C (stated that she could "do anything" despite probably knowing about other universes), possibly much higher (stated to be able to trascend dimensions).


      Hanten: Unknown, likely at least 2-C (somewhat comparable to Anshin'in).


      Medaka: Unknown, likely at least Low 2-C with All Fiction, likely at least 2-C with Bookmaker and Plot Manipulation (Anshin'in stated that nobody could defeat her ).


      Iihiko: Unknown, likely at least 2-C with plot manipulation (defeated Anshin'in more than a hundred million timesand killed her with just a rubber band ).

      However, to be fair I still think it would be better to leave Iihiko and the not-equals as Unknown and/or banning them from vs threads, since they're impossible to quantify. Also, I don't know if being able to seal 2-C characters warrants for a 2-C upgrade, maybe "likely Low 2-C with All Fiction, able to affect at least 2-C beings with Bookmaker" or something like that would be better. The same goes for plot manipulation.

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    • What do you think Matthew?

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    • I disagree 100%. Able to affect space and time and having universal range =/= Low 2-C, and looking at the scans I still see 0 evidence of Tier 2 levels of power.

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    • Are you gonna address any specifc arguments or are you just gonna sit back and say 'I don't see it?' Cuz several other people see it. Also were you addressing Kami's comment or several peoples' arguments

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    • I already addressed it several times but I can address it again, although no new arguments are being brought up.

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    • Matthew doesn't consider an unproven statement as reliable proof.

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    • No one should when it comes to upgrading people from Tier 8 to Tier 2.

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    • So what is left to change in the Medaka Box profiles if we do not apply any tier 2 upgrades?

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    • Kami95 wrote: A whole bunch of stuff that sounds good.

      I agree completely with everything said here. The Book Maker sealing still seems a bit iffy so maybe saying possibly 2-C rather than likely 2-C would be more reasonable.

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    • Also @ Matthew.

      I do agree with you that we shouldn't take statements as perfectly reliable facts, but considering how consistent the stated verbal evidence seems to be, and the amount of reasons we have to believe it's true, would ranking them as possibly Low 2-C/2-C be acceptable?

      Even if the statements aren't 100% guaranteed to be true, completely ignoring them and writing them off due to possibly being false seems to be an odd choice.

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    • @Antvasima 

      I still want to see Matthew points in countering Lapitus latest post.

      Statements should still be quantifiable with many resources or other character backing up said statement within the verse. I mean Vs battle is known for allowing such statements to fly with certain series like Dragon Ball Super when it comes to statements. For example, it is listed as a statement from  Kefla herself that she could blow away and entire universe with one shot. So, why is that certain series on VS Battle like Dragon Ball Super are able to go off statements without the set of feats to serve as proof? Is it because there is major favoritism for Dragon Ball Super it gets a free pass?

      Favortism
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    • I completely agree with Jordan. I'm not saying we should put anyone at straight up tier 2, but there ARE statements that support this, and we can't completely ignore them. "Unknown, possibly low 2-C" seems a pretty good way to say "We don't know how strong they are, but some unproven statements suggest that they MAY be low 2-C".


      @Mr. Common Sense: In that case Kefla also scales to Goku, so the statement is "proven", and it's better to avoid bringing that up here anyway.

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    • >Amount of reasons

      I see none, really. The statement seems super exaggerated.

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    • Kefka would be Low 2-C / 3-A even without the statement, in that case it's just a supporting statement.

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    • Matthew Schroeder wrote: Kefka would be Low 2-C / 3-A even without the statement, in that case it's just a supporting statement.

      It'd be so cool to have that, tho.

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    • And yes, I know you were talking about Kefla ovo

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    • Antvasima wrote: Matthew doesn't consider an unproven statement as reliable proof.

      Do you consider it reliable proof? I proved it is substantiated by reliable sources within the manga. I addressed everyone of matt's points and simply him "not seeing it" is not a refute

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    • Matthew Schroeder wrote: >Amount of reasons

      I see none, really. The statement seems super exaggerated.

      "Not seeing it" is not a refute, especially when other people do "see" it

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    • I haven't seen any reliable proof. I looked at all your scans and none of them prove that All Fiction can destroy multiple universes.

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    • To be clear, i initially only claimed Low 2-C all fiction. Even if he can only destroy 1 universe, or effect something on that level, that still warrants an upgrade. And anyway, you are the minority on that belief. I'm gonna count up the votes, because many other people do see it. So if we fall back on just view points then the upgrade is supported

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    • Should we ask KamiYasha to comment again? I don't want to bother anyone, but I doubt the conversation will go anywhere at this point.

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    • Votes about Low 2-C or 2-C Kumagawa and Medaka. Authority Points are also noted

      9 + 2 Authority Points People who "See" it or Agree :  Super Saiyan God Julian,  ShrekAlmighty,  LukaSolosYourVerse,  Mr. Common Sense,  KamiYasha (Authority Points +1),  Wuta420,  TheHadouCyberspaceWitch,  Jordanbairdcreaturemaster97,  Monarch Laciel (Authority Points +1)

      3 + 2 Authority Points People who don't "See it" or Disagree:  KarmodF,  Matthew Schroeder (Authority Points +1),  Aeyu (Authority points +1)

      Undecided/Nuetra/Idk: Antavisma (seems to be mostly nutral but not sure)

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    • I'm not sure if upgrades can be decided by votes, and I'm even less sure if we can use "authority points" for that.

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    • This wont end well.

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    • I agree, it's probably better to ask KamiYasha or someone else. Can I do it?

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    • Nah, I just did authority points because i wanted to show how many people with authority on each side are on each side. I know Ant doesn't like it when people undermine authority so I wanted to show I recognise its roll here. Really this is just to show that if we are going to fall back purely on view points, then view alone supports the upgrade

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    • PaChi2 wrote:
      This wont end well.

      perhaps not, but I have faith and respect for Antvisma, so I hope he won't let this go bad

      InB4 I get banned by Matt or someone else

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    • >Authority points

      What the hell are you even doing. Are you honestly trying so hard to argue from authority right now?

      It matters not if you  and 6 of your friends accept this, specially since a lot of the people in this thread are barely active members of the wiki and just seem to be intent on upgrading Medaka, some resorting to bashing on message walls when they were downgraded back.

      As it stands, there is no real, conclusive, objective proof that All Fiction does what the statement claims, and your speculation just forms a non-sequitur that because character A was right about A, then they would automatically be right about B as well, despite the fact that the assertion that All Fiction can destroy all of existence is astronomically greater than any other assessement in the series, and does requires proportionally more proof as well.

      This was literally just resolved. All arguments in favor were addressed multiple times and all scans answered. You don't need to just keep posting the same argument over and over, and hide behind the shield of "Other people agree". That alone won't guaratee acceptance, or else no discussion would ever be concluded.

      As it stands, Low 2-C All Fiction is an unsupported speculative hyperbolic statement that you are trying to use to upgrade Tier 8 characters to Tier 2 without a shred of conclusive evidence or feats. This upgrade won't occur, and it is in fact against the rules to do such a jarring upgrade without feats, nor will it be placed as "Possibly" just to throw fans of the series a bone, as that is unprofessional.

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    • Iapitus The Impaler wrote:

      InB4 I get banned by Matt or someone else

      Stop it. It's this type of cheeky and sarcastic posting that ruins threads in the first place. Be an adult, debate honestly and without insults and jabs, and accept the final results, and then move on. 

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    • I honestly agree with Matthew here, if passed, this will probably be the single largest upgrade in the history of this wiki, it is going to need much more than vague statements, it is going to need an actual on panel feat of universe busting.

      I honestly don't see why Medaka Box needs tiers at all, all characters should be unknown, it is a parody series that follows little to no logic.

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    • @Matthew

      I do see your points about bias and cyclical logic (Particularly considering the meta involved), but I still don't understand what the problem would be with using "possibly", as opposed to completely deciding not to acknowledge that reliable in-universe sources described the stats as being correct.

      To me it seems more professional and logical to acknowledge the possibility, rather than stick to the status quo, again because there's a possibility that the statements are complete hyperbole, despite it not making any sense for them to be used as such within the story.

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    • Because the possibly implies an upgrade. When something is rated as possibly, it is because of a strong possibility, rather than just a rare change in a blue moon. Likely is for things which are the most probably, with the rating before the "Likely" generally being a lowball.

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    • Matthew Schroeder wrote: Because the possibly implies an upgrade. When something is rated as possibly, it is because of a strong possibility, rather than just a rare change in a blue moon. Likely is for things which are the most probably, with the rating before the "Likely" generally being a lowball.

      Okay, thank you. That makes more sense.

      I have something I was planning to add to the conversation that nobody seems to have mentioned yet, but at this point I'm afraid of setting the bomb off again.

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    • Well, I am leaning towards agreeing with Matthew here. I also like the series, and consider it brilliant in terms of layered storytelling and compressing a massive amount of concepts and ideas into a limited space (I tried to do something similar in my own fanfiction story a few years earlier), but that is no reason to give it special privileges in terms of not requiring good evidence for massive upgrades.

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    • @Antvasima

      That seems fair, but can I have permission to offer one last bit of evidence as a possible refute to Matt's claims? If he still has reasons not to use it, I'll bow out of the conversation until I feel I can provide more input.

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    • @Matthew

      No, infact the opposite. I'm trying to stop this from getting rejected purely because a few people in positions of authority reject it.

      Most of these people I don't actually know, but reached out to me over this. Do you wanna explain how people being mostly innactive somehow makes their views less valid? When someone comes to my wall to vent, and then you immediatel jump to ban them, does that make their point any less valid?

      "As it stands, there is no real, conclusive, objective proof that All Fiction does what the statement claims"

      The statement itself is proof. The context validates it.

      "your speculation just forms a non-sequitur that because character A was right about A, then they would automatically be right about B as well"

      Proove its a non-sequitur, because I used the characters to specifically debunk your point. You said Kumagawa was not a reliable character source, so I responded by proving he is on matters like this and got some consistently reliable characters to support the claim and make your problem with it no longer an issue

      "All Fiction can destroy all of existence is astronomically greater than any other assessement in the series, and does requires proportionally more proof as well"

      not really actually. You can say that individually the statements are hyperbolic or invalid, but when taken as a whole they work. What would it take to convince you? and don't be vague, be specific. And similar to the Light Speed Hyperbole thing, how many cases does it take of universal or above statements and feats before they can no longer be dismissed as meer Hyperbole. And none of these have been contradicted, if they have then show me a case.

      1) The All Fiction Erasing the Universe we talked about

      2) Kumagawa Erasing Color (Whether physics manipulation or conceptual manipulation), even if it is not a DC feat he could still delete like molecular cohesion or something and pretty much destroy everything. Note that whether this is conceptual or physics manipulation on a universal scale, it would still apply

      3) Ajimu tanking the Big Bang

      4) Medaka Being stated to create a universe

      5) Styles that Surpass dimensions (note that I am claiming Styles are actually this tier, the point of them is that they are tier irrelevent but it stands to point that they work on this scale)

      6) Book Maker and All Fiction work on Hanten and Ajimu (Even at their lowest tiers relying purely on feats, they are atleast Universal+)

      Except I addressed all of the negetive claims aswell, just earlier. Did you even read my arguments? If I recycled an argument, then it was because it had been adressed before. The Majority of my comment was new. You shouldn't hide behind the sheild of "I simply don't see it" either. I only brought up more people agreeing then not because you fell back on subjective views, and the only way to really judge the subjective is via majority

      You have yet to prove they were hyperbolic, Kumagawa was dead serious in that moment. Actually, I'm trying to change Unknown tier hax to tier 8 hax. Do not misrepresent my intentions. I gave plenty of both evidence and feats, simply because you "don't see them" doesn't invalidate them. Oh it won't occur because you say it won't? What other than appeals to authority (I already proved Authority falls neither way), says that it will not? I have faith in Ant that he will atleast hear me out on this and not shut down the argument because You "don't see it" and don't like it. Going from Unknown to known is not all that jaring, especially not in a verse that is almost 100% hax based

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    • "a lot of the people in this thread are barely active members of the wiki and just seem to be intent on upgrading Medaka, some resorting to bashing on message walls when they were downgraded back"
      Since you're probably referring to me, I just meant that maybe someone listed as a knowledgeable member could have something to add that we didn't think about, since we were repeating the same things for a while. I actually disagree with the 2-C upgrade for AF too, and I'm happy it was downgraded.

      Coming back to the main subject, I still disagree with you to an extent. First of all, we have a statement, and even if it's not supported by feats we can't just ignore it when there's nothing that condradicts it either. I would agree with you if it was the only universe-level statement of the series, but it isn't, as the ability to create a universe was mentioned twice in the series (one as Ajimu's boss skill and one as Medaka's trampling skill).
      There are also mentions about higher-dimensional power, like for Iihiko (yes, I understand it was just a way to say that he gets his strenght from plot, but since plot is a major element in the series, and we already accepted it as a skill, I don't see why it shouldn't count), Style being able to overcome dimensions and Ajimu having a skill that supposedly trascend dimensions too, which means that 4D power is not something completely impossible.

      Yes, they are only statements or brief mentions inside some walls of skills. I realize that there's no feat and I'm not saying that they are undoubtely Low 2-C. But it's certainly more than "a rare change in a blue moon" and it might be likely enough to put Medaka and Kumagawa as "Unknownpossibly Low 2-C".

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    • LordWhis wrote:
      I honestly agree with Matthew here, if passed, this will probably be the single largest upgrade in the history of this wiki, it is going to need much more than vague statements, it is going to need an actual on panel feat of universe busting.

      I honestly don't see why Medaka Box needs tiers at all, all characters should be unknown, it is a parody series that follows little to no logic.

      There was a mythos character that went from star level to outerversal iirc. I have a feat of a character tanking the big band, does that work?

      I didn't think they did either, up until my thread got shut down because someone thought Unknown meant that it could not have the position argued. Said I had to makes this thread. Its a pardoy but it has consistent in universe logic, even if it is mind bending. Parody verses can have set tiers

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    • All of your claims have 0 evidence behind them, I am sorry. Now you are just arguing with headcanons such as Ajimu bieng higher-dimensional and tanking the Big Bang, neither of which she has done.

      Arguing with gigantic posts that make claims without a shred of evidence and post no scans will take you nowhere.

      A statement is not a proof. A statement is a statement, and you need evidence behind it.

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    • Matthew Schroeder wrote: All of your claims have 0 evidence behind them, I am sorry. Now you are just arguing with headcanons such as Ajimu being higher-dimensional and tanking the Big Bang, neither of which she has done.

      The higher-dimensional thing falls into the same category as her other skills, which is a whole other subset of this argument, but she was shown being present in the Big Bang in a flashback

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    • @Iapitus:

      Since this thread will probably get locked soon, no offense, but your authority points system is the worst idea ever. It is downright undemocratic.

      It doesn't even succeed at proving what you wanted to prove because there are just as many admins on your side as are on the other side.

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    • Iapitus The Impaler wrote:

      LordWhis wrote:
      I honestly agree with Matthew here, if passed, this will probably be the single largest upgrade in the history of this wiki, it is going to need much more than vague statements, it is going to need an actual on panel feat of universe busting.

      I honestly don't see why Medaka Box needs tiers at all, all characters should be unknown, it is a parody series that follows little to no logic.

      There was a mythos character that went from star level to outerversal iirc. I have a feat of a character tanking the big band, does that work?

      I didn't think they did either, up until my thread got shut down because someone thought Unknown meant that it could not have the position argued. Said I had to makes this thread. Its a pardoy but it has consistent in universe logic, even if it is mind bending. Parody verses can have set tiers

      If you're talking about my boy Nyarla, then that happened in stages & there was likely much more proof than this.

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    • Antvasima wrote:
      Well, I am leaning towards agreeing with Matthew here. I also like the series, and consider it brilliant in terms of layered storytelling and compressing a massive amount of concepts and ideas into a limited space (I tried to do something similar in my own fanfiction story a few years earlier), but that is no reason to give it special privileges in terms of not requiring good evidence for massive upgrades.

      I did give evidence tho. Don't forget that Ajmu does atleast have a universal+ feat. You should know from the context of the series that Kumagawa couldn't very well erase the universe because then we wouldn't have a story. Authors can give feats as best they can while having an actual story. If Kumagawa erased the universe then we wouldn't have a story. This isn't really special treatment anyway.

      I gave a multitude of feats and statements supporting it with not a single thing contradicted. Its the same case with the light speed Hyperbole case: A multitude of statements with not a single contradiction. Sure you can dismiss them as a joke or hyperbole individually, but at a whole they can no longer be denied

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