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  • Antvasima
    Antvasima closed this thread because:
    Discussion continued in a linked blog post.
    05:09, November 3, 2015

    Well as you all may already know Lord Kavpeny's computer has crashed and as he is unable to create the threads for the issues regarding DBZ I'll shall be doing them in his stead.

    This thread is for discussing the issues regarding Base Goku's speed during Namek saga and is made to solidify Goku's and other characters' speed during this arc as mentioned in this thread.

    The community will be revising this issue from scratch. So kindly present your arguments regarding this issue here on this thread, including the references and the context.

    Do remember, while everyone will keep an open mind regarding the statistics, irrational fanboyism will get you banned, Eg: Buu being Multiversal.

    Everyone is expected to calmly discuss the changes that are to be made and to not be unreasonable. And everyone is also expected to not derail the thread away from the main topic.

    Current stance on the issue: Currently Base Goku's speed during this arc is accepted as being Massively Hypersonic to Sub-Relativistic.

    Revised stance on the issue: Undetermined.

    Discuss!

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    • These are some feats http://www.narutoforums.com/blog.php?b=20640

      Piccolo's beam speed equals mach 1500 Nappa could dodge Piccolo's blasts

      http://z.mhcdn.net/store/manga/214/15-218.0/compressed/rdragon_ball_-_v015c218_-_page_009.jpg?v=11379216344 

      http://z.mhcdn.net/store/manga/214/15-218.0/compressed/rdragon_ball_-_v015c218_-_page_010.jpg?v=11379216344 And Goku was casually faster than Nappa http://z.mhcdn.net/store/manga/214/15-224.0/compressed/ddragon_ball_-_v015c224_-_page_013.jpg?v=11379837823 http://z.mhcdn.net/store/manga/214/15-224.0/compressed/ddragon_ball_-_v015c224_-_page_014.jpg?v=11379837823 I will say he is only mach 1500 Goku got 10x faster after training under 100x gravity according to the manga http://www.amazon.com/Dragon-Ball-Z-Vol-8/dp/1569319375 So he is mach 15,000 With his SSJ multiplier he is mach 750,000 (relativistic+) This is ignoring Goku's Zenkai http://vsbattles.wikia.com/wiki/User_blog:FanofRPGs/Goku_crosses_Namek Another speed feat I will show more a bit

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    • The SSJ multiplier can only be used for multiplying DC stats it can't be used for speed stats.

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    • No,ssj multiplier can be used to all stats,but speed os Just 25x(transformed,base form does not being changed)

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    • SchutzenDunkelZiel1217 wrote:
      The SSJ multiplier can only be used for multiplying DC stats it can't be used for speed stats.

      Doesn't the saiyan multiplier affect all stats?

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    • It affects as I know

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    • Yeah, I thought it was ok if you divided the usual multiplier in half to find  their speed

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    • @GTgokussj4: Nope only the Kaioken multiplier affects all stats. The Super Seiyajin multiplier only effects the DC (which technically includes Striking Strength) stats...

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    • Shouldn't SSJ increase all stats and not just a specific one like DC or speed only.

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    • Ssj stats DOES increase all His powers,if not frieza MUST overpower hum on raw speed during His full power(which not happens,assuming that frieza speed increases)

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    • We only know that the SSJ multipliers increase power. We don't know if the multiplier effects speed as even if it did we don't know by what amount as the multiple didn't specify that it increased speed by the same amount it increased power.

      Also I made a 3000 word long blog post to increase bleach speed stats using a stated multiplier and guess what it didn't get accepted because multiples can only be used for speed stats only if they are specifically stated to either increase speed or all stats.

      And again even if the multiplier did increase speed we don't know by what amount and are simply speculating on that as such it can't be used to increase speed.

      Now please discuss the main topic...

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    • Man,serious,raw power on dbz includes speed,he's 25 times faster on ssj as I know

      But yes,I think namek saga goku I sub relativistic + to low relativistc

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    • Look at this video Around 39:57 the multipliers affected gohan speed.

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    • And there is no statement, no written stated proof of that. If the super saiyan multiplier was specifically stated to have increased speed then we could have used the multiplier ffor it but since it didn't we can't.

      It's the same as this example. Character A is Mach 100. Character B blitzed A so he should be faster than Character A but since we don't know his exact speed he's also rated at Mach 100.

      It's similar here even if the multiplier increased speed we don't know by ho much it increased speed as it wasn't stated. And we're just speculating saying that it's a 25X increase or a 50X increase.

      Once again please discuss the main topic. And please do state proper reasoning and proof for as to why you think Goku is at a certain speed... level

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    • I don't need to look at the video dude. As I've already said multipliers can only be used for increase speed stats only if they are specifically stated and shown to do as such.

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    • Dude,there's no written proof cause there's no need,all transformations on dbz affects speed

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    • The only transformations that affects speed on a NEGATIVE manner are the bulky ones

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    • 1) That's not accepted here.

      2) The last time I tried to use a multiplier to increase speed stats it wasn't accepted so I know whether if it's accepted or not.

      3) Please discuss the main topic. And provide reasoning and proof for as to why base Goku's at a certain speed level. And please drop it with the multiplier increasing speed stats. If that was so then a lot of franchises would also get upgrades in speed...

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    • Probably wasn't affected because the multiplier functions on a different manner

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    • Last time I saw something about it

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    • It went like this. The multiplier was supposed to make you 5-10 times more powerful.

      And this character's form which granted the multiplier was specifically stated and shown to increase the character's speed yet I couldn't use the multiplier.

      And I've already discussed this before the SSJ multipliers may effect speed stats but we don't know if it also specifically increases a person's speed by 50X or whatever the multiplier is.

      As such we go by feats regarding speed stats.

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    • A question. Are we accepting speed feats From DB KAI ?, as it seems that it's being accepted as canon

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    • If there are any notable feats in DB kai then sure. Let's hear them.

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    • I can't think of any as of right now, but If it's allowed i might look into  trying to work out how different Kai is from the Standard DBZ Anime, because somewhere down the track the normal dbz anime diverges from the manga in terms of Power/Stat calculations, but if Kai has it the same way then it could be considered fair evidence

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    • It defenetly affects speed, let's take and example from this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHAMYdaERIA , as you can see Trunks augmentated his power yet sacrifice his speed. Even Cell stated to what's the point of having all that power if he doesn't have the speed to back it up. Besides if SSJ transformation didn't increase speed then Goku wouldn't have been able to stomp Frieza in the Namek Saga, it would just be a huge power boost with no speed to back it up just like the example shown in the video.

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    • FanofRPGs wrote:
      These are some feats http://www.narutoforums.com/blog.php?b=20640

      Piccolo's beam speed equals mach 1500 Nappa could dodge Piccolo's blasts

      The problem here is that AT hadn't drawn the Moon in scale 1:1.

      And in an interview, he even conferm that the DB Moon, is in the same distance of our Moon.

      http://media.animevice.com/uploads/0/9491/280261-toriyama_moon_super.jpg

      So that KI blast was at least Relativistic+ to Lightspeed.

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    • @CaptainFalcon64: Where's the proof that it increases a person's speed by 50X. It has to have feats to prove this other wise it wouldn't be applicable since this wasn't a multiplier which was specifically stated to increase speed.

      If this was applicable then a lot of other multipliers from other franchises would be applicable as well abut we don't consider them as such so we don't consider this as being applicable either.

      Now I'm getting tired of this subject. The multiplier doesn't effect speed. It and all other multipliers unless they are specifically stated to are not accepted as being able to increase speed as much as they increase power and that's not changing any time soon.

      So besides that if you think that goku should be at a a different speed level because of feats or calcs which we may have overlooked then please stated them.

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    • Stefano4444 wrote:
      FanofRPGs wrote:
      These are some feats http://www.narutoforums.com/blog.php?b=20640Piccolo's beam speed equals mach 1500 Nappa could dodge Piccolo's blasts
      The problem here is that AT hadn't drawn the Moon in scale 1:1.

      And in an interview, he even conferm that the DB Moon, is in the same distance of our Moon.

      http://media.animevice.com/uploads/0/9491/280261-toriyama_moon_super.jpg

      So that KI blast was at least Relativistic+ to Lightspeed.

      ^this

      on NF they made the distance between earth and the DB moon shorter which resulted in a lower speed, but they ignared toriyama's statement that it's the same distance as it's in our universe, so it's either relativistic or light speed.

      SSJ multiplies the speed equaly as it multiplies power, because if it's not the case, Goku would get speedblitz by 100% frieza, since the later was already faster than kaioken 20x goku in his 50% form.

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    • First captainfalcon64: this form is the only one in the whole show that make you stronger but doesn't increase your speed.

      SSJ (a regular one. not the form trunks used) affects speed. allow me to explain myself. We already know Kaioken modify all stats (speed included). Goku's maximum kaioken = kaioken 20 (multiplies all stats by 20).

      When Goku fought final form Frieza on namek, at one moment Frieza used the half of his strenght (exactly 50%). Goku was totally owned by Frieza (in both strenght and speed). Yamcha and the others were watching this via king kai's power. And they said "there's still a hope. Goku can use the kaioken". But king kai told them "he is already using the kaioken 10". Then goku used very briefly the kaioken 20 against 50% final form Frieza. He had the same strenght than him (the two of them used a ki attack and they negated each others because they had the same power).

      Since Goku had the same strenght than frieza and if kaioken 20 increase both his strenght and speed by 20 compared to his base form. Then since he was equal to 50% while temporarily in kaioken 20 (that means base goku is at 2,5 % of final form Frieza full power). Then if it doesn't increase speed as well. Can you explain me how he managed to defeat 100% final form frieza?

      If his speed was the same, then Frieza should blitz him, even if he was a SSJ (just as he did when he was in kaioken 10 while using only 50% of his strengh). 

      Conclusion. If Goku SSJ is faster ans stronger than someone who's twice stronger and faster (frieza 100% compared to frieza 50%) than the one who could blitz him while he was using the kaioken 10 and had the same speed and strenght than him while he used the kaioken 20. Then we can conclude Goku's speed and strenght are both increased and multiplied by 50 while he is a SSJ, otherwise he wouldn't be able to defeat Frieza if his speed wasn't increased as well.


      Allow me to remind this: 


      base goku (namek against frieza): 3 000 000

      Goku kaioken 10: 30 000 000

      Frieza 50%: 60 000 000

      Goku kaioken 20: 60 000 000 

      Frieza 100%: 120 000 000

      Goku SSJ: 150 000 000

      (offical numbers)


      So if he can't increase his speed at least twice more than his kaioken 20 as SSJ, can you explain me how he could win to Frieza? 

      Conclusion: if he managed to win SSJ multiplie all his stats. And once again: if Trunks was blitzed by cell it's only because this form is the only one in the show that doesn't increase speed. Otherwise they couldn't win to opponent such as majin buu who's hundreads of time faster and stronger than them in their base form.

      QED

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    • Aimenaltair wrote: SSJ multiplies the speed equaly as it multiplies power, because if it's not the case, Goku would get speedblitz by 100% frieza, since the later was already faster than kaioken 20x goku in his 50% form.

      And?. That isn't proof that the multipliers increase their speed by 50X times.

      I've already stated the this example.Character A is Mach 100. Character B blitzed A so he should be faster than Character A but since we don't know his exact speed he's also rated at Mach 100.

      It's similar here even if the multiplier increased speed we don't know by ho much it increased speed as it wasn't stated. And we're just speculating saying that it's a 25X increase or a 50X increase.

      Now drop this subject. I've already said that if there are any feats or calcs which we overlooked then bring them up otherwise this thread isn't going anywhere.

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    • Jeune fou wrote:
      First captainfalcon64: this form is the only one in the whole show that make you stronger but doesn't increase your speed.

      SSJ (a regular one. not the form trunks used) affects speed. allow me to explain myself. We already know Kaioken modify all stats (speed included). Goku's maximum kaioken = kaioken 20 (multiplies all stats by 20).

      When Goku fought final form Frieza on namek, at one moment Frieza used the half of his strenght (exactly 50%). Goku was totally owned by Frieza (in both strenght and speed). Yamcha and the others were watching this via king kai's power. And they said "there's still a hope. Goku can use the kaioken". But king kai told them "he is already using the kaioken 10". Then goku used very briefly the kaioken 20 against 50% final form Frieza. He had the same strenght than him (the two of them used a ki attack and they negated each others because they had the same power).

      Since Goku had the same strenght than frieza and if kaioken 20 increase both his strenght and speed by 20 compared to his base form. Then since he was equal to 50% while temporarily in kaioken 20 (that means base goku is at 2,5 % of final form Frieza full power). Then if it doesn't increase speed as well. Can you explain me how he managed to defeat 100% final form frieza?

      If his speed was the same, then Frieza should blitz him, even if he was a SSJ (just as he did when he was in kaioken 10 while using only 50% of his strengh). 

      Conclusion. If Goku SSJ is faster ans stronger than someone who's twice stronger and faster (frieza 100% compared to frieza 50%) than the one who could blitz him while he was using the kaioken 10 and had the same speed and strenght than him while he used the kaioken 20. Then we can conclude Goku's speed and strenght are both increased and multiplied by 50 while he is a SSJ, otherwise he wouldn't be able to defeat Frieza if his speed wasn't increased as well.


      Allow me to remind this: 


      base goku (namek against frieza): 3 000 000

      Goku kaioken 10: 30 000 000

      Frieza 50%: 60 000 000

      Goku kaioken 20: 60 000 000 

      Frieza 100%: 120 000 000

      Goku SSJ: 150 000 000

      (offical numbers)


      So if he can't increase his speed at least twice more than his kaioken 20 as SSJ, can you explain me how he could win to Frieza? 

      Conclusion: if he managed to win SSJ multiplie all his stats. And once again: if Trunks was blitzed by cell it's only because this form is the only one in the show that doesn't increase speed. Otherwise they couldn't win to opponent such as majin buu who's hundreads of time faster and stronger than them in their base form.

      QED

      ^also this

      and a 40x ssj multiplier in speed would make goku equal to 100% frieza, so it's safe to assume it's higher than 40x, or we can use 40x as a lowball.

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    • Jeune fou wrote: First captainfalcon64: this form is the only one in the whole show that make you stronger but doesn't increase your speed.

      SSJ (a regular one. not the form trunks used) affects speed. allow me to explain myself. We already know Kaioken modify all stats (speed included). Goku's maximum kaioken = kaioken 20 (multiplies all stats by 20).

      When Goku fought final form Frieza on namek, at one moment Frieza used the half of his strenght (exactly 50%). Goku was totally owned by Frieza (in both strenght and speed). Yamcha and the others were watching this via king kai's power. And they said "there's still a hope. Goku can use the kaioken". But king kai told them "he is already using the kaioken 10". Then goku used very briefly the kaioken 20 against 50% final form Frieza. He had the same strenght than him (the two of them used a ki attack and they negated each others because they had the same power).

      Since Goku had the same strenght than frieza and if kaioken 20 increase both his strenght and speed by 20 compared to his base form. Then since he was equal to 50% while temporarily in kaioken 20 (that means base goku is at 2,5 % of final form Frieza full power). Then if it doesn't increase speed as well. Can you explain me how he managed to defeat 100% final form frieza?

      If his speed was the same, then Frieza should blitz him, even if he was a SSJ (just as he did when he was in kaioken 10 while using only 50% of his strengh). 

      Conclusion. If Goku SSJ is faster ans stronger than someone who's twice stronger and faster (frieza 100% compared to frieza 50%) than the one who could blitz him while he was using the kaioken 10 and had the same speed and strenght than him while he used the kaioken 20. Then we can conclude Goku's speed and strenght are both increased and multiplied by 50 while he is a SSJ, otherwise he wouldn't be able to defeat Frieza if his speed wasn't increased as well.


      Allow me to remind this: 


      base goku (namek against frieza): 3 000 000

      Goku kaioken 10: 30 000 000

      Frieza 50%: 60 000 000

      Goku kaioken 20: 60 000 000 

      Frieza 100%: 120 000 000

      Goku SSJ: 150 000 000

      (offical numbers)


      So if he can't increase his speed at least twice more than his kaioken 20 as SSJ, can you explain me how he could win to Frieza? 

      Conclusion: if he managed to win SSJ multiplie all his stats. And once again: if Trunks was blitzed by cell it's only because this form is the only one in the show that doesn't increase speed. Otherwise they couldn't win to opponent such as majin buu who's hundreads of time faster and stronger than them in their base form.

      QED

      First what's with the wall of text.

      Second are there any feats. No. Well that's a shame then.

      You should know that certain franchises which have literally no feats at all can be FTL if we apply multipliers like these all the time. As such unless the multipliers are specifically stated to increase speed as well as strength we don't consider them applicable. And even then if the feats contradict the multipliers then they aren't applicable even if they are stated to increase speed.

      If there's anything else then you can let me know. The multiplier isn't accepted to increase speed by 50X or whatever amount and that's that.

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    • SchutzenDunkelZiel1217 wrote:

      Jeune fou wrote: First captainfalcon64: this form is the only one in the whole show that make you stronger but doesn't increase your speed.

      SSJ (a regular one. not the form trunks used) affects speed. allow me to explain myself. We already know Kaioken modify all stats (speed included). Goku's maximum kaioken = kaioken 20 (multiplies all stats by 20).

      When Goku fought final form Frieza on namek, at one moment Frieza used the half of his strenght (exactly 50%). Goku was totally owned by Frieza (in both strenght and speed). Yamcha and the others were watching this via king kai's power. And they said "there's still a hope. Goku can use the kaioken". But king kai told them "he is already using the kaioken 10". Then goku used very briefly the kaioken 20 against 50% final form Frieza. He had the same strenght than him (the two of them used a ki attack and they negated each others because they had the same power).

      Since Goku had the same strenght than frieza and if kaioken 20 increase both his strenght and speed by 20 compared to his base form. Then since he was equal to 50% while temporarily in kaioken 20 (that means base goku is at 2,5 % of final form Frieza full power). Then if it doesn't increase speed as well. Can you explain me how he managed to defeat 100% final form frieza?

      If his speed was the same, then Frieza should blitz him, even if he was a SSJ (just as he did when he was in kaioken 10 while using only 50% of his strengh). 

      Conclusion. If Goku SSJ is faster ans stronger than someone who's twice stronger and faster (frieza 100% compared to frieza 50%) than the one who could blitz him while he was using the kaioken 10 and had the same speed and strenght than him while he used the kaioken 20. Then we can conclude Goku's speed and strenght are both increased and multiplied by 50 while he is a SSJ, otherwise he wouldn't be able to defeat Frieza if his speed wasn't increased as well.


      Allow me to remind this: 


      base goku (namek against frieza): 3 000 000

      Goku kaioken 10: 30 000 000

      Frieza 50%: 60 000 000

      Goku kaioken 20: 60 000 000 

      Frieza 100%: 120 000 000

      Goku SSJ: 150 000 000

      (offical numbers)


      So if he can't increase his speed at least twice more than his kaioken 20 as SSJ, can you explain me how he could win to Frieza? 

      Conclusion: if he managed to win SSJ multiplie all his stats. And once again: if Trunks was blitzed by cell it's only because this form is the only one in the show that doesn't increase speed. Otherwise they couldn't win to opponent such as majin buu who's hundreads of time faster and stronger than them in their base form.

      QED

      First what's with the wall of text.

      Second are there any feats. No. Well that's a shame then.

      You should know that certain franchises which have literally no feats at all can be FTL if we apply multipliers like these all the time. As such unless the multipliers are specifically stated to increase speed as well as strength we don't consider them applicable. And even then if the feats contradict the multipliers then they aren't applicable even if they are stated to increase speed.

      If there's anything else then you can let me know. The multiplier isn't accepted to increase speed by 50X or whatever amount and that's that.

      Well you keep talking about ssj multipliers not being close to 50x, care to state how on earth ssj goku could handle 100%  frieza if kaioken 20x goku couldn't handle 50% frieza, plz do tell.

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    • I can see this going nowhere fast..

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    • I am going to post a commnt regarding the death beams in a bit, I can't on this kindle.

      Base Goku is at least sub--relativistic using the crossing Namek calc though

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    • It really is going nowhere, anyway I thought this was about Base Goku's speed not SSJ.

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    • LordAizenSama wrote:
      I can see this going nowhere fast..

      no the feat has been stated by Fannon, but Schul is saying that ssj multipliers don't affect the speed evenly as it effects power, which is completely wrong sionce if it wasn't for at least 40x speed multiplier, frieza would own ssj goku.

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    • It's highly possible SSJ transformations increase speed as well, but as Schut said, there isn't evidence this increase is nearly as much as the power multiplier.

      However, this is irrelevant, as base Goku's speed is what is being questioned, and the thread should stay on that topic.

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    • Aimenaltair wrote: Well you keep talking about ssj multipliers not being close to 50x, care to state how on earth ssj goku could handle 100%  frieza if kaioken 20x goku couldn't handle 50% frieza, plz do tell.

      Sigh. First of all don't twist my words around. I said the SSJ multipliers were an unknown I never stated that they are not being close to 50x in speed.

      And this would mean that the Kaioken multiplier is simply inconsistent with it's showings. A 50X speed upgrade doesn't just happen without any feats whatsoever.

      The only thing which partly supports any increase in speed whiles Frieza used more of his power was the kaioken multiplier. But it going be stated that the kaioken multiplier was inconsistent since literally no feats support.

      If you apply this to other franchises then they would be FTL without any feats.

      If there are any feats which support this 50X multiplier then I'll accept it but if there ain't then sorry but it ain't gonna be accepted.

      You need feats to upgrade stats...

      Now I'm gonna ask this for the last time. Is there any feats or calcs which we overlooked for Base goku in the frieza saga to be placed on a different speed level...

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    • Oblivion00 wrote:
      It really is going nowhere, anyway I thought this was about Base Goku's speed not SSJ.

      well base goku was dodging nappa casually in the saiyan saga, nappa reacted to piccolo's beams, the later's beams are relativistic+ to light speed using the moon calc, then we have namek goku pre zenkai, itwas said that he was 10x faster, and then he crassed half of namek in less than 1sec, blocked death beams from frieza casually and escaped the light ball of death, that puts base goku at relativistic+ and that's when with a huge lowball.

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    • Piccolo's beams are relativistic+ to light speed based on what exactly.

      "then he crassed half of namek in less than 1sec"

      Where did ya get the timeframe from...

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    • SchutzenDunkelZiel1217 wrote:
      @CaptainFalcon64: Where's the proof that it increases a person's speed by 50X. It has to have feats to prove this other wise it wouldn't be applicable since this wasn't a multiplier which was specifically stated to increase speed.

      If this was applicable then a lot of other multipliers from other franchises would be applicable as well abut we don't consider them as such so we don't consider this as being applicable either.

      Now I'm getting tired of this subject. The multiplier doesn't effect speed. It and all other multipliers unless they are specifically stated to are not accepted as being able to increase speed as much as they increase power and that's not changing any time soon.

      So besides that if you think that goku should be at a a different speed level because of feats or calcs which we may have overlooked then please stated them.

      Never said it increases times 50x, I said it affects speed, it would make no sense for Goku not to blitz Frieza if it weren't the case, different multipliers affect in different ways (unless they are specific), Dark can boost his magical power (along wth his stats) when he turns into his Majin Dark Schneider form , Ichigo can boost his speed with Bankai, SSJ Trunks can boost his power when he ascends to USSJ.

      Those one's are specific, if it didn't inscrease speed then why was Goku able to keep up with Beerus despite loosing the SSG transformation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DOLKt3UHJ0o , we can clearly see Goku's attack being dodge like nothing by Beerus yet suddendly he get's a massive speed boost.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xoQGPZa6W8. and starts landing hit's on Beerus

      Frieza moved faster than Goku can percieved despite Goku being able to keep up before yet still got hit. Like you stated Kaio-Ken multiplied all stats, then Goku's speed should also be 20 times greater than before when he uses Kaio-ken 20x then why did he resort to this? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_d22e7SgJeM instead of fighting Freiza head on?. We can also see here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gIBOI8uOw-E that as a SSJ Goku was smacking Final Form Frieza around dispite Goku getting Blitz before he was a SSJ.

      Just because it's implied that his power goes up doesn't mean that his speed doesn't increase look at this scan 249_1.png Cui stated than he and Vegeta used to be evenly match yet, http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/13/139933/3516379-cui+6.jpg Vegeta outpaces him, Zenkai boost implies that a Saiyan increases their POWER not their speed, yet a few Zenkai boost makes Vegeta faster than Cui by a large marging, if a mere Zenkai can do that then why can't SSJ transfromation do it?.

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    • SchutzenDunkelZiel1217 wrote:
      Piccolo's beams are relativistic+ to light speed based on what exactly.

      "then he crassed half of namek in less than 1sec"

      Where did ya get the timeframe from...

      yes they did a timeframe n narutp forums and came with mach 1500 beam, but they calculated the distance with pixel scale and totally overlooked the interview of toriyma, where he said it's the same distance as in the real world, so using the timeframe 8 seconds i believe we'll get mach 138483 beam which nappa reacted to, and goku was casualy dodging nappa's punches, in the saiyan saga.

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    • Funny how this is causing more debate than Cell being a Solar System buster at the moment.

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    • the naruto forum thing was based on 17 second time, while in kai we clearly see it only takes 4 seconds or less for the beam to get to the moon AND for the light to come back to us, hence using this info, the speed of piccolo's beam is relativistic+/ relativistic

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    • The Living Tribunal1 wrote:
      the naruto forum thing was based on 17 second time, while in kai we clearly see it only takes 4 seconds or less for the beam to get to the moon AND for the light to come back to us, hence using this info, the speed of piccolo's beam is relativistic+/ relativistic

      no someone later gave him a proper timeframe in the comments which was 8seconds iirc.

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    • how was it 8 seconds, it was around 4 seconds in the video, look at the vid

      skip to 7:35

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    • @CaptainFalcon64: Bro Ichigo boosts his speed 5-10 times while in bankai. Well that isn't accepted here. Just saying this should be enough for you to know where I'm coming from.

      Feats are still needed bro. If the Kaioken multiplier is the only thing that holds it in place then it'll be discarded in favor in it being simply inconsistent with it's showings.

      Feats are required to upgrade a character's speed besides that there isn't anything else I'm gonna say. Multipliers aren't accepted as being able to increase speed. And that ain't changing. I already tried to boost the Bleach characters speed using Ichigo's bankai multiplier and it didn't get accepted. Not Ichigo's being rated at the same speed from SS arc to regaining his powers.

      @The Living Tribunal1: Abuse of cinematic time. That's all I'll say here. Also timeframe gained from a calc >> cinematic time.

      @Aimenaltair: His timeframe is based on another calc. If it was truly only 8 seconds then he would've changed his calc...

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    • The Living Tribunal1 wrote:
      how was it 8 seconds, it was around 4 seconds in the video, look at the vid

      skip to 7:35

      yeah but they were using the manga not the kai version, so mach 260,000 nappa indeed.

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    • so are you suggesting that the beam really only went at mhs speeds?

      that wud take at LEAST 126 seconds for all of it to happen

      so thinking that piccolo is standing there idly that long while gohan is tearing up everythign FOR 2 MINUTES is more reasonable than the 'abuse' of cinematic timing???

      in the manga, it only takes one panel, and panel in fight/ action scenes as such dont happen between absurdly long times like 2 minutes

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    • The Living Tribunal1 wrote:
      so are you suggesting that the beam really only went at mhs speeds?

      that wud take at LEAST 126 seconds for all of it to happen

      so thinking that piccolo is standing there idly that long while gohan is tearing up everythign FOR 2 MINUTES is more reasonable than the 'abuse' of cinematic timing???

      in the manga, it only takes one panel, and panel in fight/ action scenes as such dont happen between absurdly long times like 2 minutes

      no i mean mach 260000

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    • Aimenaltair wrote:
      The Living Tribunal1 wrote:
      how was it 8 seconds, it was around 4 seconds in the video, look at the vidskip to 7:35
      yeah but they were using the manga not the kai version, so mach 260,000 nappa indeed.

      where does it state in the manga that it was 8 seconds?

      ok even if it was indeed 8 seconds, thats still relativistic

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    • Distance from the moon to earth = 384,400 km.

      Timeframe = 17.84 seconds. I'll say it again here. That (Both the 4 seconds and 8 seconds) is what most calculators call abuse of cinematic time. That's all I'll say here. Also timeframe gained from a calc >> cinematic time.

      So speed = Distance/Time = 21547.085 km/s or around 7% speed of light or mach 63373.78.

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    • Aimenaltair wrote:
      The Living Tribunal1 wrote:
      so are you suggesting that the beam really only went at mhs speeds?

      that wud take at LEAST 126 seconds for all of it to happen

      so thinking that piccolo is standing there idly that long while gohan is tearing up everythign FOR 2 MINUTES is more reasonable than the 'abuse' of cinematic timing???

      in the manga, it only takes one panel, and panel in fight/ action scenes as such dont happen between absurdly long times like 2 minutes

      no i mean mach 260000

      mach 260K is still in the relativistic range, so thats close as a whole 

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    • SchutzenDunkelZiel1217 wrote:
      Distance from the moon to earth = 384,400 km.

      Timeframe = 17.84 seconds. I'll say it again here. That (Both the 4 seconds and 8 seconds) is what most calculators call abuse of cinematic time. That's all I'll say here. Also timeframe gained from a calc >> cinematic time.

      So speed = Distance/Time = 21547.085 km/s or around 7% speed of light or mach 63373.78.

      how is the time frame 17 seconds? where are you getting that from?

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    • Okay here is one of the most famous Dragon Ball feats

      http://comic.dragonballcn.com/list/0.Dragon_Ball-buyao_daolian_ya/0.jp_Kanzenban/DRAGONBALLvol21/112-Q0W9z.jpg

      Here is why

      The Death Beams are light speed

      evidence 1

      -The Z Fighters could not even concieve the death Beams

      http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/14/149746/3899665-1979781074-37440.jpg

      -They use chi sensory to see 

      http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/14/146951/3928987-3812907158-pdrag.jpg

      And their chi sensory can sense ships that go at FTL speeds

      https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-mDU55xwaihw/VcilMdUYo-I/AAAAAAAAYrI/ljFd5Sg9TpY/w847-h709-no/1.jpg

      Yet like as shown they could barely sense the death beams

      evidence 2

      http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/14/149746/3899665-1979781074-37440.jpg

      Piccolo calls the blast a flash of light

      evidence 3

      The legend of Manga guide calls it a beam of light emitted from Freeza's finger

      https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-exESilCLmr8/VYS9vO1T_-I/AAAAAAAAOh8/cthVaKz7mfU/w960-h638-no/2015-06-19.jpg

      Usually these beams are not called "light" 

      evidence 4*

      Author's intent: Akira Toriyama is simple, I doubt he knows what "sub-relativistic" or "relativistic" speeds are. He just knows the speed of light exists. When he wrote the story it was very obvious they were meant to be ludicrously fast compared to the already massively hypersonic+ to sub-relativistic characters. He was trying to make Goku look so fast and strong swatting them away.

      • This one uses authors intent and it might not be used

      The speed of light is 670,616,629 miles per hour.

      Freeza was probably 15 feet from Goku. So that means it took 15.25 nanoseconds for the beams to get their.

      Goku reacted to ~3 feet of space.

      3 feet/15.25 nanoseconds = 134,128,167 miles per hour (relativistic)

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    • @The Living Tribunal1: Like I said before Timeframe from a calc >> Cinematic Time and it's from this

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    • SchutzenDunkelZiel1217 wrote:
      Distance from the moon to earth = 384,400 km.

      Timeframe = 17.84 seconds. I'll say it again here. That (Both the 4 seconds and 8 seconds) is what most calculators call abuse of cinematic time. That's all I'll say here. Also timeframe gained from a calc >> cinematic time.

      So speed = Distance/Time = 21547.085 km/s or around 7% speed of light or mach 63373.78.

      this timeframe is wrong and someone on the comments gave the 8 seconds, then again the later is wrong because dbz kai is the best one to rely on when it comes to time events, which is 4secs, so in a whole the beam was mach 260k.

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    • SchutzenDunkelZiel1217 wrote: Distance from the moon to earth = 384,400 km.

      Timeframe = 17.84 seconds. I'll say it again here. That (Both the 4 seconds and 8 seconds) is what most calculators call abuse of cinematic time. That's all I'll say here. Also timeframe gained from a calc >> cinematic time.

      So speed = Distance/Time = 21547.085 km/s or around 7% speed of light or mach 63373.78.

      So Piccolo's beam using that timeframe would be Sub Relativistic+

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    • SchutzenDunkelZiel1217 wrote:
      @The Living Tribunal1: Like I said before Timeframe from a calc >> Cinematic Time and it's from this

      like i said kai proves you wrong.

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    • Oblivion00 wrote:

      SchutzenDunkelZiel1217 wrote: Distance from the moon to earth = 384,400 km.

      Timeframe = 17.84 seconds. I'll say it again here. That (Both the 4 seconds and 8 seconds) is what most calculators call abuse of cinematic time. That's all I'll say here. Also timeframe gained from a calc >> cinematic time.

      So speed = Distance/Time = 21547.085 km/s or around 7% speed of light or mach 63373.78.

      So Piccolo's beam using that timeframe would be Sub Relativistic+

      Goku got 10x faster after training under 100x gravity

      http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/812k6eQW29L.jpg

      So he would be at least mach 633,737.8 (relativistic+)

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    • @Aimenaltair: No it doesn't Timeframe gained from a calc >> cinematic time (which is the timeframe from DBZ Kai). If the 8 seconds was actually accurate then the person who made the calc would've changed it already.

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    • @Aimenaltair: No one ever uses cinematic time if there's a calc which you can get the timeframe from. There's something which most calculators and us call abuse of cinematic time which can always happen which is why timeframes from calcs are more acceptable and is used more.

      @FanofRPGs: I'll look into that as well as your calculations...

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    • SchutzenDunkelZiel1217 wrote:
      @CaptainFalcon64: Bro Ichigo boosts his speed 5-10 times while in bankai. Well that isn't accepted here. Just saying this should be enough for you to know where I'm coming from.

      Feats are still needed bro. If the Kaioken multiplier is the only thing that holds it in place then it'll be discarded in favor in it being simply inconsistent with it's showings.

      Feats are required to upgrade a character's speed besides that there isn't anything else I'm gonna say. Multipliers aren't accepted as being able to increase speed. And that ain't changing. I already tried to boost the Bleach characters speed using Ichigo's bankai multiplier and it didn't get accepted. Not Ichigo's being rated at the same speed from SS arc to regaining his powers.

      @The Living Tribunal1: Abuse of cinematic time. That's all I'll say here. Also timeframe gained from a calc >> cinematic time.

      @Aimenaltair: His timeframe is based on another calc. If it was truly only 8 seconds then he would've changed his calc...

      Well that's understandable then, seems like I don't have anything that would count as proof.

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    • I don't really have an opinion regarding this, but just wanted to mention that since I have been told that DBZ Kai is referenced in DB Super, this seems to be the new official continuity, so we should probably prioritise feats shown within this series.

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    • Antvasima wrote:
      I don't really have an opinion regarding this, but just wanted to mention that since I have been told that DBZ Kai is referenced in DB Super, this seems to be the new official continuity, so we should probably prioritise feats shown within this series.

      ^this

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    • @Antvasima: So far what we have is. Saiyan Saga Characters being Sub-Relativistic+ due to reacting to Piccolo's laser.

      Apparently the person who made this calc used 9,318.7 kilometers as the distance from the earth to the moon but it was later confirmed by Akira Toriyama that the distance between earth and moon in DBU is the same as the distance between our earth and moon.

      I did a small calc here for that.

      SchutzenDunkelZiel1217 wrote:
      Distance from the moon to earth = 384,400 km.

      Timeframe = 17.84 seconds. I'll say it again here. That (Both the 4 seconds and 8 seconds) is what most calculators call abuse of cinematic time. That's all I'll say here. Also timeframe gained from a calc >> cinematic time.

      So speed = Distance/Time = 21547.085 km/s or around 7% speed of light or mach 63373.78.

      The timeframe is from this. Since timeframes from calcs are more accepted than timeframes based on cinematic time I used the timeframe from the calc instead of the cinematic time. No calculator would use Cinematic time if they already had a timeframe from another calc since there's always a high possibility of abuse of cinematic time happening all the time.

      And then there's the statement that Goku apparently got 10 times faster and stronger after training in 100X gravity. Which FanofRPGs is talking about.

      That's all the progress for now...

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    • Okay. Thank you for helping out.

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    • Well no need to thank me. I'll handle everything on this end. For the cell thing I'll join in in a while.

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    • Anyway it's obvious SSJ = all stats X 50. 

      SSJ 2 = all stats X 100 

      and SSJ 3 = all stats X 400. 

      Because if there was no speed gain, they would always be blitzed by more powerful opponents. 

      Also, about the piccolo beam, in dbkai it took indeed around 4 or 5 second for it to reach the moon. Making piccolo's beam at relativistic speed (moon - earth = 385 000 km/5 = 77 000 km/s). 

      But as some persons said it earlier, Nappa managed to dodge Piccolo's beam. Nappa is at least at relativistic speed as well. But saiyan Saga Goku and Vegeta are far faster than Nappa (easily realtivistic +). Then with Burter, we clearly have a ftl warrior (since he can blitz Vegeta who was already more powerful at that moment than on earth). And we know Ginue is even faster than Burter because he was able to touch Goku (unlike Burter who never managed to actually hit Goku) etc ...

      During the fight against Frieza, Vegeta, Piccolo, Goku and Frieza himself are all ftl +. Especially if you consider 3rd form Frieza managed to blitz Piccolo (without weights) who was slightly stronger than his 2nd form. And in his final form (and he used a small % of his full power, Piccolo said his 3rd form was "innofensive" compared to his final form). 

      However considering the SSJ (speed multiplied by 50) and Frieza 100%. It is clear to me Frieza and Goku were mftl (that make sense because remember what I said: Burter being ftl and ginue being faster than him. But Frieza is like 1000 time stronger and fatser than Ginue in his final form at 100%).

      Ah one last thing. There's no proof at all SSJ doesn't increase speed. In fact that's the contrary because Goku SSJ was a lot faster than Goku kaioken 20 (since he was slightly stronger and faster than 100% frieza while Goku kaioken 20 had the exact same level than 50% Frieza).

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    • @SDZ All right.

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    • Funny how Saiyan Saga characters got upgraded from Massively Hypersonic+ to Sub Relativistic+ just because Toriyama confirmed that Dragon Ball's Earth to the moon distance is the same as our own.

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    • Oblivion00 wrote:
      Funny how Saiyan Saga characters got upgraded from Massively Hypersonic+ to Sub Relativistic+ just because Toriyama confirmed that Dragon Ball's Earth to the moon distance is the same as our own.

      wait, they're getting upgraded to sub relativistic? awesome

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    • Oblivion00 wrote:
      Funny how Saiyan Saga characters got upgraded from Massively Hypersonic+ to Sub Relativistic+ just because Toriyama confirmed that Dragon Ball's Earth to the moon distance is the same as our own.

      IKR.

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    • @Jeune fou:

      1) I never sated that the SSJ multipliers didn't increase speed. I said that they were unknowns as they were neight stated nor shown to be a 50X upgrade in speed. If there were shown to be as such then there would be feats at that level.

      2) Feats are needed. If the Kaioken multiplier is the only thing that holds it in place then it'll be discarded in favor in it being simply inconsistent with it's showings.

      Feats are required to upgrade a character's speed besides that there isn't anything else I'm gonna say. Multipliers aren't accepted as being able to increase speed. And that ain't changing.

      3) I'm not gonna continue arguing regarding and I'd suggest you drop this subject as it won't go anywhere. For a massive upgrade such as a 50X upgreade in speed you need feats to support it and not some multiplier which is barely accepted. If ya want the speed stats to change then get the feats for it.

      @Oblivion00: The change hasn't been applied yet so you shouldn't celebrate just yet. But yes.

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    • I like this most since I was planning to do a SSJ Goku vs Super Sonic thread but I thought Goku would get blitzed, hopefully this will make SSJ Goku FTL/FTL+ and then it might be a match

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    • SSJ Goku being FTL/FTL+ after this well that I doubt. But that depends on what you provide so I'll hear ya out.

      Do tell what would put him at that level of speed and I don't wanna have to give another lecture about why multipliers are not accepted for speed upgrades so please don't say the SSJ multipliers...

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    • Oh I know the change hasn't been applied. Just surprised that they were that fast in the Saiyan saga due to recent confirmations on the distance from Piccolo's moon busting attack.

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    • @Oblivion00: Heh alright I see. And this thread just might make some characters FTL so I'm quite surprised myself...

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    • SchutzenDunkelZiel1217 wrote:
      @Jeune fou:

      1) I never sated that the SSJ multipliers didn't increase speed. I said that they were unknowns as they were neight stated nor shown to be a 50X upgrade in speed. If there were shown to be as such then there would be feats at that level.

      2) Feats are needed. If the Kaioken multiplier is the only thing that holds it in place then it'll be discarded in favor in it being simply inconsistent with it's showings.

      Feats are required to upgrade a character's speed besides that there isn't anything else I'm gonna say. Multipliers aren't accepted as being able to increase speed. And that ain't changing.

      3) I'm not gonna continue arguing regarding and I'd suggest you drop this subject as it won't go anywhere. For a massive upgrade such as a 50X upgreade in speed you need feats to support it and not some multiplier which is barely accepted. If ya want the speed stats to change then get the feats for it.

      @Oblivion00: The change hasn't been applied yet so you shouldn't celebrate just yet. But yes.

      That's true, we need feats. Alright. So let's say it (SSJ) increase speed by even "only" 40 then (Goku kaiolen 20 had the same speed and power than 50% Frieza). Then even like that, it's more than enough to drastically increase Goku's speed don't you think? Especially since it has been confirmed earth-moon in our world = earth-moon in dbz (making Piccolo's beam at realtivistic speed and changing many things because the whole base of dragon ball z will most likely be upgraded).

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    • Well he was ~.7c by the Namek Saga going by what I got and he got a massive speed boost after his Zenkai. SSJ Goku by the Boo Saga should be at the very least a couple times FTL by the Boo Saga even if SSJ has no speed multiplier. 

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    • It seems you didn't read this part " If the Kaioken multiplier is the only thing that holds it in place then it'll be discarded in favor in it being simply inconsistent with it's showings."

      The Kaioken multiplier can be discarded as a whole if there's literally nothing as in no feats to support such a massive speed upgrade. Well I'll look into this so just wait for a bit.

      For now is there anything else...

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    • FanofRPGs wrote: Well he was ~.7c by the Namek Saga going by what I got and he got a massive speed boost after his Zenkai. SSJ Goku by the Boo Saga should be at the very least a couple times FTL by the Boo Saga even if SSJ has no speed multiplier. 

      Hmmmm... I would like to see the calc for this. If it's reasonable then we'll see what can be done...

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    • SchutzenDunkelZiel1217 wrote:

      FanofRPGs wrote: Well he was ~.7c by the Namek Saga going by what I got and he got a massive speed boost after his Zenkai. SSJ Goku by the Boo Saga should be at the very least a couple times FTL by the Boo Saga even if SSJ has no speed multiplier. 

      Hmmmm... I would like to see the calc for this. If it's reasonable then we'll see what can be done...

      It was the one stated above. If that one holds truth then he should be FTL post zenkai.

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    • SchutzenDunkelZiel1217 wrote:
      @Jeune fou:

      1) I never sated that the SSJ multipliers didn't increase speed. I said that they were unknowns as they were neight stated nor shown to be a 50X upgrade in speed. If there were shown to be as such then there would be feats at that level.

      2) Feats are needed. If the Kaioken multiplier is the only thing that holds it in place then it'll be discarded in favor in it being simply inconsistent with it's showings.

      Feats are required to upgrade a character's speed besides that there isn't anything else I'm gonna say. Multipliers aren't accepted as being able to increase speed. And that ain't changing.

      3) I'm not gonna continue arguing regarding and I'd suggest you drop this subject as it won't go anywhere. For a massive upgrade such as a 50X upgreade in speed you need feats to support it and not some multiplier which is barely accepted. If ya want the speed stats to change then get the feats for it.

      @Oblivion00: The change hasn't been applied yet so you shouldn't celebrate just yet. But yes.

      you know what, I suggest you do this:

      Nappa was reacting to piccolo's beam sub-relativistic+

      Goku post zenkai namek saga sub-relativistic+ even if he's thousand of time faster than his saiyan saga counterpart

      100% frieza sub-relativistic+ even if he's tens of thousands of times faster than Nappa

      ssj goku sub-relativistic+ even if he was able to blitz frieza

      with all due respect admin but you you're arguments are far from being logical, and above all of that it seems you want to downplay since frieza was blitzing piccolo who was sub-relativistic in the saiyan saga, so FTL frieza and ssj goku is normal.

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    • You mean this one...

      FanofRPGs wrote: Okay here is one of the most famous Dragon Ball feats

      http://comic.dragonballcn.com/list/0.Dragon_Ball-buyao_daolian_ya/0.jp_Kanzenban/DRAGONBALLvol21/112-Q0W9z.jpg

      Here is why

      The Death Beams are light speed

      evidence 1

      -The Z Fighters could not even concieve the death Beams

      http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/14/149746/3899665-1979781074-37440.jpg

      -They use chi sensory to see 

      http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/14/146951/3928987-3812907158-pdrag.jpg

      And their chi sensory can sense ships that go at FTL speeds

      https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-mDU55xwaihw/VcilMdUYo-I/AAAAAAAAYrI/ljFd5Sg9TpY/w847-h709-no/1.jpg

      Yet like as shown they could barely sense the death beams

      evidence 2

      http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/14/149746/3899665-1979781074-37440.jpg

      Piccolo calls the blast a flash of light

      evidence 3

      The legend of Manga guide calls it a beam of light emitted from Freeza's finger

      https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-exESilCLmr8/VYS9vO1T_-I/AAAAAAAAOh8/cthVaKz7mfU/w960-h638-no/2015-06-19.jpg

      Usually these beams are not called "light" 

      evidence 4*

      Author's intent: Akira Toriyama is simple, I doubt he knows what "sub-relativistic" or "relativistic" speeds are. He just knows the speed of light exists. When he wrote the story it was very obvious they were meant to be ludicrously fast compared to the already massively hypersonic+ to sub-relativistic characters. He was trying to make Goku look so fast and strong swatting them away.

      • This one uses authors intent and it might not be used

      The speed of light is 670,616,629 miles per hour.

      Freeza was probably 15 feet from Goku. So that means it took 15.25 nanoseconds for the beams to get their.

      Goku reacted to ~3 feet of space.

      3 feet/15.25 nanoseconds = 134,128,167 miles per hour (relativistic)

      Well if so I would like you to make a blog post for this as we should place something in the profils as justification for the speed if this actually gets accepted.

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    • Aimenaltair wrote:
      SchutzenDunkelZiel1217 wrote:
      @Jeune fou:

      1) I never sated that the SSJ multipliers didn't increase speed. I said that they were unknowns as they were neight stated nor shown to be a 50X upgrade in speed. If there were shown to be as such then there would be feats at that level.

      2) Feats are needed. If the Kaioken multiplier is the only thing that holds it in place then it'll be discarded in favor in it being simply inconsistent with it's showings.

      Feats are required to upgrade a character's speed besides that there isn't anything else I'm gonna say. Multipliers aren't accepted as being able to increase speed. And that ain't changing.

      3) I'm not gonna continue arguing regarding and I'd suggest you drop this subject as it won't go anywhere. For a massive upgrade such as a 50X upgreade in speed you need feats to support it and not some multiplier which is barely accepted. If ya want the speed stats to change then get the feats for it.

      @Oblivion00: The change hasn't been applied yet so you shouldn't celebrate just yet. But yes.

      you know what, I suggest you do this:

      Nappa was reacting to piccolo's beam sub-relativistic+

      Goku post zenkai namek saga sub-relativistic+ even if he's thousand of time faster than his saiyan saga counterpart

      100% frieza sub-relativistic+ even if he's tens of thousands of times faster than Nappa

      ssj goku sub-relativistic+ even if he was able to blitz frieza

      with all due respect admin but you you're arguments are far from being logical, and above all of that it seems you want to downplay since frieza was blitzing piccolo who was sub-relativistic in the saiyan saga, so FTL frieza and ssj goku is normal.

      Post Zenkai Namek Sub-Relativistic+ and SSJ also Sub Relativistic+? i'm sorry but that makes little sense.

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    • Aimenaltair wrote:

      SchutzenDunkelZiel1217 wrote:
      @Jeune fou:

      1) I never sated that the SSJ multipliers didn't increase speed. I said that they were unknowns as they were neight stated nor shown to be a 50X upgrade in speed. If there were shown to be as such then there would be feats at that level.

      2) Feats are needed. If the Kaioken multiplier is the only thing that holds it in place then it'll be discarded in favor in it being simply inconsistent with it's showings.

      Feats are required to upgrade a character's speed besides that there isn't anything else I'm gonna say. Multipliers aren't accepted as being able to increase speed. And that ain't changing.

      3) I'm not gonna continue arguing regarding and I'd suggest you drop this subject as it won't go anywhere. For a massive upgrade such as a 50X upgreade in speed you need feats to support it and not some multiplier which is barely accepted. If ya want the speed stats to change then get the feats for it.

      @Oblivion00: The change hasn't been applied yet so you shouldn't celebrate just yet. But yes.

      you know what, I suggest you do this:

      Nappa was reacting to piccolo's beam sub-relativistic+

      Goku post zenkai namek saga sub-relativistic+ even if he's thousand of time faster than his saiyan saga counterpart

      100% frieza sub-relativistic+ even if he's tens of thousands of times faster than Nappa

      ssj goku sub-relativistic+ even if he was able to blitz frieza

      with all due respect admin but you you're arguments are far from being logical, and above all of that it seems you want to downplay since frieza was blitzing piccolo who was sub-relativistic in the saiyan saga, so FTL frieza and ssj goku is normal.

      Well the Namek saga's speed was calculated before Toriyama confirmed that Earth to Moon distance in Dragon Ball is the same as our own. With the Saiyan saga likely being upgraded to Sub Relativistic+ in the future, this will likely affect the speed of the characters in the Namek saga.

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    • you know what, I suggest you do this:

      Nappa was reacting to piccolo's beam sub-relativistic+

      Goku post zenkai namek saga sub-relativistic+ even if he's thousand of time faster than his saiyan saga counterpart

      100% frieza sub-relativistic+ even if he's tens of thousands of times faster than Nappa

      ssj goku sub-relativistic+ even if he was able to blitz frieza

      with all due respect admin but you you're arguments are far from being logical, and above all of that it seems you want to downplay since frieza was blitzing piccolo who was sub-relativistic in the saiyan saga, so FTL frieza and ssj goku is normal.

      "Goku post zenkai namek saga sub-relativistic+ even if he's thousand of time faster than his saiyan saga counterpart"

      Where do you get thousands of times from because nothing shown or stated supports that.

      "100% frieza sub-relativistic+ even if he's tens of thousands of times faster than Nappa"

      What's the proof that he's tens of thousands of time faster. Because nothing shown or stated supports this.

      Sigh. The person who made that comment accepted what I said. And we do need feats for this.

      Also I'm surprised you're saying that my answers aren't being logical. Because I'm using all the logic I can. I've already stated why multipliers aren't accepted yet you completely ignored all of my replies and kept talking about the SSJ multipliers. Which is derailing this thread. I could've already blocked ya for that but I didn't and won't.

      @CaptainFalcon64: Tell ya what bro. As an example Bankai Ichigo in SS arc is mach 29 and two years later he's much much faster and has had multiplie upgrades and what do we rate him as oh yes mach 29+. Simply because we can't get a definite speed without using multipliers.

      Seriously this thread is to discuss feats which we may have missed. And judging by what FanofRPGs is already saying it would seem as though DBZ characters might be FTL without using the SSJ multipliers and with feats so you shouldn't be sad upgrades are already due.

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    • CaptainFalcon64 wrote:
      Aimenaltair wrote:
      SchutzenDunkelZiel1217 wrote:
      @Jeune fou:

      1) I never sated that the SSJ multipliers didn't increase speed. I said that they were unknowns as they were neight stated nor shown to be a 50X upgrade in speed. If there were shown to be as such then there would be feats at that level.

      2) Feats are needed. If the Kaioken multiplier is the only thing that holds it in place then it'll be discarded in favor in it being simply inconsistent with it's showings.

      Feats are required to upgrade a character's speed besides that there isn't anything else I'm gonna say. Multipliers aren't accepted as being able to increase speed. And that ain't changing.

      3) I'm not gonna continue arguing regarding and I'd suggest you drop this subject as it won't go anywhere. For a massive upgrade such as a 50X upgreade in speed you need feats to support it and not some multiplier which is barely accepted. If ya want the speed stats to change then get the feats for it.

      @Oblivion00: The change hasn't been applied yet so you shouldn't celebrate just yet. But yes.

      you know what, I suggest you do this:

      Nappa was reacting to piccolo's beam sub-relativistic+

      Goku post zenkai namek saga sub-relativistic+ even if he's thousand of time faster than his saiyan saga counterpart

      100% frieza sub-relativistic+ even if he's tens of thousands of times faster than Nappa

      ssj goku sub-relativistic+ even if he was able to blitz frieza

      with all due respect admin but you you're arguments are far from being logical, and above all of that it seems you want to downplay since frieza was blitzing piccolo who was sub-relativistic in the saiyan saga, so FTL frieza and ssj goku is normal.

      Post Zenkai Namek Sub-Relativistic+ and SSJ also Sub Relativistic+? i'm sorry but that makes little sense.

      I was being sarcastic bro.

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    • Hmmmm... sigh. Is there anything else you guys wanna bring up. If there is then please do so. I'm here to hear all your arguments and reasoning regarding the changes that are to be made...

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    • Piccolo's beam is not sub relativistic. But relativistic.

      Relativistic (more or less): 10% - 50% light speed = 30 000 km/s - 150 000 km/s. 

      Piccolo's beam (low hypothesis). 5 seconds to reach the moon in db kai. 

      earth-moon: 385 000 km/5 = 77 000 km/s.

      (high hypothesis): 4 seconds:

      385 000 km/4 = 96 250 km/s.


      Conclusion: Piccolo's beam = relativistic speed in both cases.


      So if Nappa managed to avoid such a quick attack, that makes him at relativistic speed. And that makes not sense at all to say 100% frieza is relativistic as well since he is like 10 000 time faster than nappa.


      Anyway if Nappa is at this speed

      then Goku and vegeta (saiyan saga) are relativistic +

      Someone as fast as Burter (he blitzed vegeta who was stronger at that moment than on earth) = ftl

      Ginue = ftl as well (faster than Burter since he touched Goku).

      Frieza first; 2nd form and 3rd form = ftl +

      Vegeta and piccolo (fight against frieza) = ftl +

      Goku and final form frieza 100% = mftl (Goku is like 100 time stronger and faster than vegeta as SSJ since at that moment base goku was stronger than vegeta).

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    • SchutzenDunkelZiel1217 wrote:

      you know what, I suggest you do this:

      Nappa was reacting to piccolo's beam sub-relativistic+

      Goku post zenkai namek saga sub-relativistic+ even if he's thousand of time faster than his saiyan saga counterpart

      100% frieza sub-relativistic+ even if he's tens of thousands of times faster than Nappa

      ssj goku sub-relativistic+ even if he was able to blitz frieza

      with all due respect admin but you you're arguments are far from being logical, and above all of that it seems you want to downplay since frieza was blitzing piccolo who was sub-relativistic in the saiyan saga, so FTL frieza and ssj goku is normal.

      "Goku post zenkai namek saga sub-relativistic+ even if he's thousand of time faster than his saiyan saga counterpart"

      Where do you get thousands of times from because nothing shown or stated supports that.

      "100% frieza sub-relativistic+ even if he's tens of thousands of times faster than Nappa"

      What's the proof that he's tens of thousands of time faster. Because nothing shown or stated supports this.

      Sigh. The person who made that comment accepted what I said. And we do need feats for this.

      Also I'm surprised you're saying that my answers aren't being logical. Because I'm using all the logic I can. I've already stated why multipliers aren't accepted yet you completely ignored all of my replies and kept talking about the SSJ multipliers. Which is derailing this thread. I could've already blocked ya for that but I didn't and won't.

      @CaptainFalcon64: Tell ya what bro. As an example Bankai Ichigo in SS arc is mach 29 and two years later he's much much faster and has had multiplie upgrades and what do we rate him as oh yes mach 29+. Simply because we can't get a definite speed without using multipliers.

      Seriously this thread is to discuss feats which we may have missed. And judging by what FanofRPGs is already saying it would seem as though DBZ characters might be FTL without using the SSJ multipliers and with feats so you shouldn't be sad upgrades are already due.

      OK, as you wish.

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    • This thread was about Base Goku's speed during the Namek arc, then Saiyan saga characters and SSJ multipliers were brought into the discussion.

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    • Jeune fou wrote: Piccolo's beam is not sub relativistic. But relativistic.

      Relativistic (more or less): 10% - 50% light speed = 30 000 km/s - 150 000 km/s. 

      Piccolo's beam (low hypothesis). 5 seconds to reach the moon in db kai. 

      earth-moon: 385 000 km/5 = 77 000 km/s.

      (high hypothesis): 4 seconds:

      385 000 km/4 = 96 250 km/s.


      Conclusion: Piccolo's beam = relativistic speed in both cases.


      So if Nappa managed to avoid such quick attack, that makes him at relativistic speed. And that makes not sense at all to say 100% frieza is relativistic as well since he is like 10 000 time faster than nappa.


      Anyway if Nappa is at this speed

      then Goku and vegeta (saiyan saga) are relativistic +

      Someone as fast as Burter (he blitzed vegeta who was stronger at that moment than on earth) = ftl

      Ginue = ftl as well (faster than Burter since he touched Goku).

      Frieza first; 2nd form and 3rd form = ftl +

      Vegeta and piccolo (fight gainst frieza) = ftl +

      Goku and final form frieza 100% = mftl (Goku is like 100 time stronger and faster than vegeta as SSJ since at that moment base goku was stronger than vegeta).

      Sigh I've already made a calc in the replies with a timeframe which is more acceptable and not assumed. That's how Piccolo's beam got to be Sub-Relativistic. If you want to look at it just scroll up and you'll find it...

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    • So basically you're saying Goku is not at light speed because they said the death beam was light? But Frieza already used the death beam in his first form (and Gohan, Krillin and vegeta were not touched by it).

      Also I'm sorry but you still haven't prove anything but the fact Frieza's attack was described as "light". 

      You never demonstrated Nappa and other saiyan saga characters are slower than relativistic (because Piccolo's beam is still at relativistic speed). 

      Also we know speeds are improving a lot from a saga to another. 

      Because Goku could easily blitz nappa without kaioken. So that make Goku and vegeta relativistic + (since nappa is relativistic). 

      Please just show us piccolo's beam is not relativistic to prove you're right.

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    • Piccolo's beam is at Relativistic speed huh. Buhahahahahaha... yeah good joke. Or perhaps you didn't see this calc below. Just scroll down and look.

      SchutzenDunkelZiel1217 wrote: @Antvasima: So far what we have is. Saiyan Saga Characters being Sub-Relativistic+ due to reacting to Piccolo's laser.

      Apparently the person who made this calc used 9,318.7 kilometers as the distance from the earth to the moon but it was later confirmed by Akira Toriyama that the distance between earth and moon in DBU is the same as the distance between our earth and moon.

      I did a small calc here for that.

      SchutzenDunkelZiel1217 wrote:
      Distance from the moon to earth = 384,400 km.

      Timeframe = 17.84 seconds. I'll say it again here. That (Both the 4 seconds and 8 seconds) is what most calculators call abuse of cinematic time. That's all I'll say here. Also timeframe gained from a calc >> cinematic time.

      So speed = Distance/Time = 21547.085 km/s or around 7% speed of light or mach 63373.78.

      The timeframe is from this. Since timeframes from calcs are more accepted than timeframes based on cinematic time I used the timeframe from the calc instead of the cinematic time. No calculator would use Cinematic time if they already had a timeframe from another calc since there's always a high possibility of abuse of cinematic time happening all the time.

      And then there's the statement that Goku apparently got 10 times faster and stronger after training in 100X gravity. Which FanofRPGs is talking about.

      That's all the progress for now...

      Oh btw if I'm right or if you don't have a reasonable answer to this then well bad things will happen...

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    • SchutzenDunkelZiel1217 wrote:
      Piccolo's beam is at Relativistic speed huh. Buhahahahahaha... yeah good joke. Or perhaps you didn't see this calc below. Just scroll down and look.

      SchutzenDunkelZiel1217 wrote: @Antvasima: So far what we have is. Saiyan Saga Characters being Sub-Relativistic+ due to reacting to Piccolo's laser.

      Apparently the person who made this calc used 9,318.7 kilometers as the distance from the earth to the moon but it was later confirmed by Akira Toriyama that the distance between earth and moon in DBU is the same as the distance between our earth and moon.

      I did a small calc here for that.


      SchutzenDunkelZiel1217 wrote:
      Distance from the moon to earth = 384,400 km.

      Timeframe = 17.84 seconds. I'll say it again here. That (Both the 4 seconds and 8 seconds) is what most calculators call abuse of cinematic time. That's all I'll say here. Also timeframe gained from a calc >> cinematic time.

      So speed = Distance/Time = 21547.085 km/s or around 7% speed of light or mach 63373.78.

      The timeframe is from this. Since timeframes from calcs are more accepted than timeframes based on cinematic time I used the timeframe from the calc instead of the cinematic time. No calculator would use Cinematic time if they already had a timeframe from another calc since there's always a high possibility of abuse of cinematic time happening all the time.

      And then there's the statement that Goku apparently got 10 times faster and stronger after training in 100X gravity. Which FanofRPGs is talking about.

      That's all the progress for now...

      Oh btw if I'm right or if you don't have a reasonable answer to this then well bad things will happen...

      I don't like the way you're talking to us admin, bad things like what?

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    • Ah now I understand your point of view. it's because you're using the old anime. It was indeed slower in the old anime (17,84 s indeed). 

      But in dbkai it's far faster (it take no more than 5 seconds to his beam to reach the moon). The real question is: what do we use use? Dbkai? Or the old anime.

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    • Jeune fou wrote:
      Ah now I understand your point of view. it's because you're using old anime. It was indeed slower in the old anime (17,84 s indeed). 

      But in dbkai it's far faster (it take no more than 5 seconds to his beam to reach the moon). The real question is: what do we use use? Dbkai? Or the old anime.

      he's using the manga's timeframe

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    • How do we know it took 17,84 s in the manga?

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    • I do no not see why people are arguing with SDZ, that post he had for his calc sounds correct. 

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    • Aimenaltair wrote: I don't like the way you're talking to us admin, bad things like what?

      Bad things like me having to give a long ass lecture for this...

      @Jeune fou: That isn't cinematic time I got it from this this. The time frame was calculated here.

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    • SchutzenDunkelZiel1217 wrote:

      Aimenaltair wrote: I don't like the way you're talking to us admin, bad things like what?

      Bad things like me having to give a long ass lecture for this...

      @Jeune fou: That isn't cinematic time I got it from this this. The time frame was calculated here.

      Ok. I'm ok with that then. The anime (dbkai) certainly decided to make it shorter. So if the real timeframe = 17,84 seconds, then everything is changed indeed. Sorry. I didn't know you were using this. I thought you were based on dbkai (ep 5).

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    • No worries. Well if there's anything else you wanna bring up for changes to be made then please go ahead...

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    • i don't envy what Schutzen has to deal with here. bleh. Paitence over 9000

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    • Hum so that makes Nappa and Piccolo sub relativistic + right?

      Then would you say goku and Vegeta (saiyan saga) are relativistic? (considering base goku is already faster than Nappa but vegeta is faster than Goku kaioken 2 (he is forced to use kaioken 3 to be at his level)).

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    • Ah yes. Like I said bad things are happening to me I guess but it isn't really what I would consider as bad. Anyway I'm gonna turn in for the night soon so if you guys bring up anything new I'll check it in a bit....

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    • LordAizenSama wrote: i don't envy what Schutzen has to deal with here. bleh. Paitence over 9000

      Neither do I. I agree with his calc that the characters in the Saiyan saga are at least Sub Relativistic, don't understand why people are arguing with him about that.

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    • Jeune fou wrote: Hum so that makes Nappa and Piccolo sub relativistic + right?

      Then would you say goku and Vegeta (saiyan saga) are relativistic? (considering base goku is already faster than Nappa but vegeta is faster than Goku kaioken 2 (he is forced to use kaioken 3 to be at his level)).

      Relativistic huh perhaps basing on the Kaioken they might be Relativistic... I'll look into this in a bit. For now I need to turn in for the night.

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    • LordAizenSama wrote:
      i don't envy what Schutzen has to deal with here. bleh. Paitence over 9000

      I understood his point of view. it's just I haven't read he was using the manga timeframe. Now everything is clear (it was just a misunderstanding).

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    • From what I see from Dragonball, Ki is applied universally across all of ones stats. It has been consistently shown throughout the entirety of the franchise that upping ones Ki through training will positively affect all of that persons stats.

      Before Goku was sorely outclassed by Frieza in all areas before becoming a Super Saiyan. But when he achieved SSj1, he was able to at least (and outclass) Frieza in terms of speed.

      You could claim that "we don't know exactly how fast it makes him," but it would be absurd to think that it doesn't increase his stats at all. With all due respect @SchutzenDunkelZiel1217, stat raises may not be applied across all areas in Bleach, but DB isn't Bleach and has been shown to work differently in terms of increasing power.

      I just wanted to clear that up. If someone disagrees then I would like to hear why, seeing as this has been a consistent theme throughout the series as I said above...

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    • I'd say, based on that feat, Saiyan Saga characters are Sub-Relativistic+, stronger Frieza Saga and a fair amount of Cell Saga characters are Relativistic, the strongest Cell Saga and most Buu Saga characters are Relativistic+, Buuhan is At least Relativistic+, likely higher and Vegito is FTL.

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    • Well given that Jeune fou reminded me of the Goku having to use Kaioken 3X against Vegeta they may be Relativistic during the Saiyan Saga...

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    • @Jeune yeah that's all good, but just scroll up and look at all the arguing that's been going on,over the same stuff he already explained, lol Hes been going at this for hours, works hard though.

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    • The Everlasting wrote:
      I'd say, based on that feat, Saiyan Saga characters are Sub-Relativistic+, stronger Frieza Saga and a fair amount of Cell Saga characters are Relativistic, the strongest Cell Saga and most Buu Saga characters are Relativistic+, Buuhan is At least Relativistic+, likely higher and Vegito is FTL.

      I think it will be more, Freeza Saga Goku is already relativistic+

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    • @Sheoth I thought that, because of the unknown speed increase, whatever standard multiplier we had (SSJ1 for example) we would halve that to find the speed as a lowball kinda deal (SO 25X Speed instead)

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    • @Sheoth: Bro for Bleach Bankai Ichigo is mach 29+ for blitzing someone who can move at mach 29. He got his ass handed to him by Grimmjow. And we still rate Grimmjow as mach 29+. He later fights Grimmjow on equal footing with an upgrade he's still rated as mach 29+. Get's bltized by Ulquiorra and he later blitzes Ulquiorra with a new form and both are still rated as mach 29+. Finally after all of this Aizen makes Bankai Ichigo seem like a statue and Aizen's still rated as being mach 29+. Finally after two years he regains his powers again and gains the reiatsu of all the captains and Vice captains and he's still rated as mach 29+. Ok do you not see anything wrong with this.

      I used the bankai multiplier to make things a bit more evened out and yet it wasn't accepted. And the whole reason it wasn't accepted was because of the whole multiplier thing. So I don't see what's right with using a multiplier for DBZ when it couldn't already be used for other franchises...

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    • @Schutzen wow, there is definitely a problem there. i know at one point we had MHS starrk and Co, never understood why that got removed..

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    • SchutzenDunkelZiel1217 wrote:
      @Sheoth: Bro for Bleach Bankai Ichigo is mach 29+ for blitzing someone who can move at mach 29. He got his ass handed to him by Grimmjow. And we still rate Grimmjow as mach 29+. He later fights Grimmjow on equal footing with an upgrade he's still rated as mach 29+. Get's bltized by Ulquiorra and he later blitzes Ulquiorra with a new form and both are still rated as mach 29+. Finally after all of this Aizen makes Bankai Ichigo seem like a statue and Aizen's still rated as being mach 29+. Finally after two years he regains his powers again and gains the reiatsu of all the captains and Vice captains and he's still rated as mach 29+. Ok do you not see anything wrong with this.

      I used the bankai multiplier to make things a bit more evened out and yet it wasn't accepted. And the whole reason it wasn't accepted was because of the whole multiplier thing. So I don't see what's right with using a multiplier for DBZ when it couldn't already be used for other franchises...

      Oh now i see, fair enough i guess so now ssj goku is at the same speed as base goku, because bankai ichigo didn't get the multiplier, come on bro don't be that guy.

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    • @SchutzenDunkelZiel1217: Apologies, I was unaware of that. May I quickly ask why the mulitpliers were denied?

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    • @Aimenaltair: Uhhh no I was explaining what was wrong with bleach as as whole. Well it's crappy enough as it is.

      Listen I never said that the SSJ multiplier didn't increase speed just that it was an unknown. If you guys seriously want it then it will be put under consideration then (since this is a community discussion the whole community is gonna make the decisions not just the admins). But I want to be able to look through some feats first. An upgrade is already due as I've already said but even if we have to make the upgrade I'd rather if it were from specific feats but again first we'll look through FanofRPGs calcs and if that doesn't work then we'll see what we can do with the SSJ multipliers.

      @Sheoth: There's no need to apologize. Why it wasn't accepted. It was because other franchises would have to be upgraded the same way then which would make for infinite upgrades without any feats whatsoever. If the multipliers were used that way then other franchises could be FTL without have any feats which suggest any level even near that. This was the reason.

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    • There is one thing we should also remember. Before he arrived on namek, Goku did his training at 100 G. When he arrived he was a LOT faster than Burter and Jeice (while burter was able to blitz Vegeta after he had two zenkais (healed after his battle against goku and then healed after his battle against Zabon). 

      In saiyan saga, Goku had to use his kaioken 3 against Vegeta to be at his level (vegeta was 3 time faster than him then). This vegeta is faster and stronger than the one Goku fought on earth, but he isn't that much stronger and faster. To be honnest, I think he is 5 time faster than saiyan saga goku. However, even like this Burter is easily twice faster than Vegeta (because he couldn't follow Burter with his eyes when Vegeta threw the dragon ball away). So burter is 10 times faster than Saiyan saga goku. However, after his training, Goku managed to surpass Burter's speed using only 2/3 of his base form's full power (Ginue immediately understood he hasn't use his base form's full power against his men). 


      Goku (2/3 base form) is 1,5 time faster than Burter (15 times faster than his saiyan saga counterpart).

      Goku (base full power) is twice faster than Burter (20 times faster than his saiyan saga counterpart).

      Then captain ginue was slightly better than base goku.


      So if we consider saiyan saga vegeta is realistic (min 10% of light speed). I think it's safe to consider Goku (base full power on namek but before the fight against frieza) who's 7 time stronger than vegeta is at light speed in his base form and ftl when using his kaioken.

      What do you think of that? 

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    • SchutzenDunkelZiel1217 wrote:
      @Aimenaltair: Uhhh no I was explaining what was wrong with bleach as as whole. Well it's crappy enough as it is.

      Listen I never said that the SSJ multiplier didn't increase speed just that it was an unknown. If you guys seriously want it then it will be put under consideration then (since this is a community discussion the whole community is gonna make the decisions not just the admins). But I want to be able to look through some feats first. An upgrade is already due as I've already said but even if we have to make the upgrade I'd rather if it were from specific feats but again first we'll look through FanofRPGs calcs and if that doesn't work then we'll see what we can do with the SSJ multipliers.

      @Sheoth: There's no need to apologize. Why it wasn't accepted. It was because other franchises would have to be upgraded the same way then which would make for infinite upgrades without any feats whatsoever. If the multipliers were used that way then other franchises could be FTL without have any feats which suggest any level even near that. This was the reason.

      i am with you in that point, if we use multipliers in one franchise we should use them on the others, but wait does any multiplier have been stated in manga or guidebooks in bleach?

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    • @Jeune fou: We can't exactly use what you're suggesting as Goku was said to be 10 times faster and stronger after arriving on Namek. So we have a 10X increase there.

      @Aimenaltair: Yep Bankai increases a person's power by 5 to 10 times at the very least. Literally none of the characters on the franchise use this multiplier however. Well let's not discuss about Bleach. And keep things with DBZ kay'. I'd rather not deal with a Bleach storm from hell (just a replacement for the saying Sh*tstorm) right now...

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    • Okay, I am still confused. From what you just told me, the Bleach characters had legitimate speed feats via blitz that would warrant an upgrade.

      So does this mean that they weren't upgraded because the blitzing simply wasn't quantified as being fast enought to warrant an upgrade? Or was it that because we don't want to deal with upgrading numerous other franchises due to the same reason?

      Because from what I see, Ichigo having achieved Bankai, his speed increased by a good margin. So we are basically denying legitimate displays because we don't want to increase the work load, or am I mistaken...

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    • I think this is how the speed should progress, this is if the Kaio Ken multipliers are discluded during the Freeza Saga and beyond

      Saiya-Jin Saga: Sub-relativistic+, with relativistic top tiers

      Namek Saga: Sub relativistic and low relativistic, Goku and Ginyu are Relativistic+, and Goku is temporarily low FTL using the Kaio-Ken x2

      Freeza Saga: low FTL, mid FTL for Goku and Freeza initially, and high FTL for 100% and SSJ Goku

      Cell Saga: mid FTL for the low tiers, high FTL for the SSJs, low FTL+ for everything up to initial Perfect Cell, mid FTL+ for everything above that

      Boo Saga: mid-high FTL+ to low MFTL

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    • SchutzenDunkelZiel1217 wrote:
      @Jeune fou: We can't exactly use what you're suggesting as Goku was said to be 10 times faster and stronger after arriving on Namek. So we have a 10X increase there.

      @Aimenaltair: Yep Bankai increases a person's power by 5 to 10 times at the very least. Literally none of the characters on the franchise use this multiplier however. Well let's not discuss about Bleach. And keep things with DBZ kay'. I'd rather not deal with a Bleach storm from hell (just a replacement for the saying Sh*tstorm) right now...

      True ... this is also confirmed by his power level (8 000 in base form in saiyan saga and 90 000 on namek after training). 

      Alright, so ... let's consider he is 10 time faster. that makes him like 3.5 faster than saiyan saga vegeta. He would then become most likely relativistic + (base form full power on namek before Frieza) and light speed or ftl using kaioken 2?

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    • @Sheoth: Let's let this be the final post regarding bleach. Byakuya's Bankai was calculated to be mach 29 and Bankai Ichigo casually was out pacing Byakuya's Bankai. Meaning that he was above above 29 from the start. After that various blitzes happen which made indexing a pain in the ass. So it was considered that blitzes simply weren't quantifiable so everyone was rated at Mach 29+ even though a lot of them should be much higher than mach 29.

      What I tried to do was use the bankai multiplier which used a 5 to 10 increase to say that Bankai Ichigo would be 5X Shikai Ichigo in speed as the specific ability of his bankai was to increase speed which would make him around 2.5 X mach 29 and later on use this upgrade for his post timeskip bankai. And that's how it came down to the whole thing. Since there were literally no direct feats or calcs which supported just having the multiplier would seem more like the multiplier was just inconsistent and a few others.

      I've already accepted that what I proposed was with the speed multiplier on the bleach thing was wrong so I'd rather not deal with this...

      @Jeune fou: He's already more or less considered to be relativistic+ in base in saiyan saga.

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    • Then that's perfect I have nothing to add.

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    • I suddenly remember screwattack's nonsense on the kirby/buu video. when they said "and kirby's warp star moves faster than light, a speed buu never had to combat before". 

      Those guys and their "research" will always make me laugh.

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    • I'll make a blog post regarding this thread with a calc filled with everything I've gathered until now...

      Well be happy you've got a FTL DBZ but it's unknown if it'll be accepted though...

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    • Good luck! It will be rather long! if you need scans or screenshots you can always ask me!

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    • Luck huh well I'm gonna need all the luck I can get and I'm supposed to be the impartial judge here and yet I'm gonna make blog post supporting FTL DBZ. Heh such an interesting turn of events. Well the blog post will be up tomorrow take a look at it when it's up kay'...

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    • Sure. You can count on me for what! 

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    • Alright...

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    • Oops I mean "that", not "what". Stupid me ... english is not my native language. So that's what happens when I write too quickly ^^

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    • so where are saiyan, name and cell saga as of now?

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    • This isn't accepted yet and is simply a rough outline.

      Saiyan Saga Base Goku = Sub-Relativistic+ (7% SOL)

      Saiyan Saga KaiokenX2 Goku = Relativistic (14% SOL)

      Saiyan Saga KaiokenX3 Goku = Relativistic (21% SOL)

      Namek Saga Base Goku = Relativistic+ (70% SOL)

      Namek Saga KaiokenX10 Goku = FTL (7X FTL)

      Namek Saga KaiokenX20 Goku = FTL+ (14X FTL)

      I can't quite say the others just yet. I'll leave them as a surprise. For the Cell Saga and later ones there's gonna have to be another discussion for that. But we get FTL for Frieza Saga but don't get your hopes up just yet this hasn't been accepted just yet and still needs input...

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    • sounds reasonable

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    • WAIT!, I have 1 question.....with these upgrades will it mean that Yamcha can finally solo a verse?.

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    • CaptainFalcon64 wrote:
      WAIT!, I have 1 question.....with these upgrades will it mean that Yamcha can finally solo a verse?.

      he can already solo many verses.....

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    • Yamcha can most likely already solo one piece (even without upgrade).

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    • CaptainFalcon64 wrote: WAIT!, I have 1 question.....with these upgrades will it mean that Yamcha can finally solo a verse?.

      I'm thinking that this is a joke well maybe we'll just have to wait and see (^_^)...

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    • SchutzenDunkelZiel1217 wrote:

      CaptainFalcon64 wrote: WAIT!, I have 1 question.....with these upgrades will it mean that Yamcha can finally solo a verse?.

      I'm thinking that this is a joke well maybe we'll just have to wait and see (^_^)...

      lol we have to give Yamcha some credits don't you think? :P

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    • Well once the blog post for this calc of sort is up a new thread will be made this time for input to see if everyone accepts the changes. So I'll be closing this thread after I make that blog post...

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    • SchutzenDunkelZiel1217 wrote:
      This isn't accepted yet and is simply a rough outline.

      Saiyan Saga Base Goku = Sub-Relativistic+ (7% SOL)

      Saiyan Saga KaiokenX2 Goku = Relativistic (14% SOL)

      Saiyan Saga KaiokenX3 Goku = Relativistic (21% SOL)

      Namek Saga Base Goku = Relativistic+ (70% SOL)

      Namek Saga KaiokenX10 Goku = FTL (7X FTL)

      Namek Saga KaiokenX20 Goku = FTL+ (14X FTL)

      I can't quite say the others just yet. I'll leave them as a surprise. For the Cell Saga and later ones there's gonna have to be another discussion for that. But we get FTL for Frieza Saga but don't get your hopes up just yet this hasn't been accepted just yet and still needs input...

      I agree with this.

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    • ThePerpetual
      ThePerpetual removed this reply because:
      Wrong thread, typing was accident.
      18:36, October 30, 2015
      This reply has been removed
    • ThePerpetual wrote:
      Can we get some admins in here, and conclude this thread once and for all?

      read the posts above

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    • CaptainFalcon64 wrote: lol we have to give Yamcha some credits don't you think? :P

      Of course but he's... Yamcha...

      @ThePerpetual: This thread has already served it's purpose. And it will be closed soon once I've made that blog post for the new speed stats and a new thread will be started for that.

      Although I must say this thread has nearly twice the amount of replies as the Cell Solar System Level thread. This is quite a shocker....

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    • SchutzenDunkelZiel1217 wrote:

      CaptainFalcon64 wrote: lol we have to give Yamcha some credits don't you think? :P

      Of course but he's... Yamcha...

      @ThePerpetual: This thread has already served it's purpose. And it will be closed soon once I've made that blog post for the new speed stats and a new thread will be started for that.

      Although I must say this thread has nearly twice the amount of replies as the Cell Solar System Level thread. This is quite a shocker....

      Speed is important -_-

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    • Ah yes it certainly is...

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    • Oh the 50x multiplier is not used, but is the 2 and 8x multiplier of the initial SSJ form for SSJ2&3 allowed?

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    • tbh if the kaoiken multiplier is used, same shud be th case with the ssj multiplier be used

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    • FanofRPGs wrote:
      I think this is how the speed should progress, this is if the Kaio Ken multipliers are discluded during the Freeza Saga and beyond

      Saiya-Jin Saga: Sub-relativistic+, with relativistic top tiers

      Namek Saga: Sub relativistic and low relativistic, Goku and Ginyu are Relativistic+, and Goku is temporarily low FTL using the Kaio-Ken x2

      Freeza Saga: low FTL, mid FTL for Goku and Freeza initially, and high FTL for 100% and SSJ Goku

      Cell Saga: mid FTL for the low tiers, high FTL for the SSJs, low FTL+ for everything up to initial Perfect Cell, mid FTL+ for everything above that

      Boo Saga: mid-high FTL+ to low MFTL

      Just to ask, this is based about the Official Power Levels of Dragon Ball? Or that is based about mere powerscale?

      Because if what you said is based about Power Levels, then Frieza is suppost to be already MFTL (if he is already FTL in his Base Form).


      Anyway, more or less this sound right for me.

      Even if i think that Vegeta Saiyan Saga should be already FTL (or at least Relativistic+ to LS).

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    • Should I be doing vs battles using the new stats yet or should we wait for the pages to be updated?

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    • I think it's better just to wait for the pages to be updated.

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    • Aimenaltair wrote:
      Jeune fou wrote:
      Ah now I understand your point of view. it's because you're using old anime. It was indeed slower in the old anime (17,84 s indeed). 

      But in dbkai it's far faster (it take no more than 5 seconds to his beam to reach the moon). The real question is: what do we use use? Dbkai? Or the old anime.

      he's using the manga's timeframe

      If we use the Manga's timeframe, then the beam reach the Moon in a single second at best.


      Also, another fact that it see that nobody talk about here.

      Krillin and Gohan (at Namek) weren't able to be equal fast as their own KI blasts?

      http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/3/37144/4267707-gul1.jpg

      http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/3/37144/4267708-gul2.jpg

      And via Power Levels, they are suppost to be weaker (so slower) than Vegeta Saiyan Saga.

      http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_uGs4u3Hs_aY/SqaVV-SxTEI/AAAAAAAAAgk/GFVwLzj4Goo/s1600/V-Jumpdaizen7.jpg

      So if is accept that the KI beam of Piccolo was Relativistic, this feat can actually prove that maybe Vegeta in the Saiyan Saga was already LS?

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    • SchutzenDunkelZiel1217 wrote:
      The SSJ multiplier can only be used for multiplying DC stats it can't be used for speed stats.

      As a person well versed on DBZ and one that respects the need for feats and information, I'm asking you to be a bit reasonable and use some common sense. It's made pretty clear that transformations do increase speed BUT...  I am with you on one thing. We don't know how much and we can't accept the multiplier for it unless shown otherwise.

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    • I admittedly don't currently have any idea what Goku's base speed would have been during the Namek Saga, but I do feel as though I can help with the SSJ speed multiplier debate. You see as far as I understand the SSJ multipliers increase maximum ki outputs, and character stats are almost directly determined by one's ki output. Therefore the x50 SSJ multiplier should apply to all stats, unless the character has some other trait or active effect inhibiting them.

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    • The multiplier rule doesn't count. Do you know how many series use multipliers for such an effect? The calculations would crap on everything, unless you want that to happen, I suggest you just back away from the notion very slowly.

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    • Davy0 wrote:
      The multiplier rule doesn't count. Do you know how many series use multipliers for such an effect? The calculations would crap on everything, unless you want that to happen, I suggest you just back away from the notion very slowly.

      Multiplier count. Example: kaioken is admitted by everybody as a multiplier of all stats. Why would it be different with SSJ forms?

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    • OK. So how about we take every single series and give this Multiplier effect a try with them, let's say we do this for Bleach, every bankai should give a person 5 to ten times their usual power level, even though every ability is different based on the users own uniqueness.

      And then let's go to a series that relies on transformations akin to DB what happens then. What happens when said abilities subvert what characters are truly capable of doing. Then you have a massive problem on your hands. Do you not? Feats and word of god are one thing, but multipliers are known to be wrong in terms of feats and multipliers becoming outliers.

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    • I wonder when the blog will be done

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    • FanofRPGs wrote:
      I wonder when the blog will be done

      I hope it doesn't take much longer, since cell ss and kid buu galaxy busting is finished

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    • Davy0 wrote:
      OK. So how about we take every single series and give this Multiplier effect a try with them, let's say we do this for Bleach, every bankai should give a person 5 to ten times their usual power level, even though every ability is different based on the users own uniqueness.

      And then let's go to a series that relies on transformations akin to DB what happens then. What happens when said abilities subvert what characters are truly capable of doing. Then you have a massive problem on your hands. Do you not? Feats and word of god are one thing, but multipliers are known to be wrong in terms of feats and multipliers becoming outliers.

      It's different with db because precise numbers are given (example: kaioken 2 = twice faster, kaioken 3 = 3 time faster. Kaioken 20 = 20 time faster, SSJ 1 = 50 time faster etc ...)

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    • Jeune fou wrote:
      Davy0 wrote:
      OK. So how about we take every single series and give this Multiplier effect a try with them, let's say we do this for Bleach, every bankai should give a person 5 to ten times their usual power level, even though every ability is different based on the users own uniqueness.

      And then let's go to a series that relies on transformations akin to DB what happens then. What happens when said abilities subvert what characters are truly capable of doing. Then you have a massive problem on your hands. Do you not? Feats and word of god are one thing, but multipliers are known to be wrong in terms of feats and multipliers becoming outliers.

      It's different with db because precise numbers are given (example: kaioken 2 = twice faster, kaioken 3 = 3 time faster. Kaioken 20 = 20 time faster, SSJ 1 = 50 time faster etc ...)

      I agree with Jeune fou. The whole multiplier thing works differently in Dragon Ball than in other series. And not using multipliers for other series, in my opinion, does not justify not using them for DB. Nor does using multipliers for DB justify using them in other series.

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    • Even without using the multipliers DBZ characters are likely getting upgrades in speed.

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    • The only reason why the Kaioken Multiplier is accepted is because it's specifically stated to increase all of a person's stats by the multiplier. SSJ multiples aren't stated to be like that. And I've explained this multiple times already so don't start bringing it up again.

      The Blog post will be done in a few minutes...

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    • So if Saiyan Saga Goku is Sub Relativistic+ (7% SoL) and kaioken x2 would be Relativistic (14% SoL). Would that mean Vegeta in the Saiyan Saga is also going to be Relativistic as he managed to keep up with Goku whilst he was using kaoiken.

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    • Yes and SSJ Goku and Frieza are likely gonna be FTL+....

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    • Damn FTL+ in the Namek saga, never thought I would see that.

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    • I am sorry, and you can go ahead and disregard this comment if the blog post is already almost done, but I am fairly certain the SSJ multiplier does affect all stats due to the fact that it multiplies ki output, which does directly translate to all stats, including strength, durability, attack potency, and even speed.

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    • The Correctionist wrote: I am sorry, and you can go ahead and disregard this comment if the blog post is already almost done, but I am fairly certain the SSJ multiplier does affect all stats due to the fact that it multiplies ki output, which does directly translate to all stats, including strength, durability, attack potency, and even speed.

      It probably does to be honest but it's not very specific especially when it comes to speed and only says the transformation increases the user's power by 50. But it doesn't really matter anyway since SSJ Goku and Frieza are likely FTL+.

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    • The Correctionist wrote: I am sorry, and you can go ahead and disregard this comment if the blog post is already almost done, but I am fairly certain the SSJ multiplier does affect all stats due to the fact that it multiplies ki output, which does directly translate to all stats, including strength, durability, attack potency, and even speed.

      Unless there's an official statement that it increases all stats it ain't gonna be applicable sorry. But hey they're still likely gonna receive a 40X increase but don't be hopeful just yet...

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    • SchutzenDunkelZiel1217 wrote:

      Unless there's an official statement that it increases all stats it ain't gonna be applicable sorry. But hey they're still likely gonna receive a 40X increase but don't be hopeful just yet...

      Yeah... I doubt we'd ever get something like an actual quote confirming it... I am fairly certain that is how it works, but I understand no quote = not acceptable.

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    • Oblivion00 wrote:

      The Correctionist wrote: I am sorry, and you can go ahead and disregard this comment if the blog post is already almost done, but I am fairly certain the SSJ multiplier does affect all stats due to the fact that it multiplies ki output, which does directly translate to all stats, including strength, durability, attack potency, and even speed.

      It probably does to be honest but it's not very specific especially when it comes to speed and only says the transformation increases the user's power by 50. But it doesn't really matter anyway since SSJ Goku and Frieza are likely FTL+.

      True but the Zenkai boost does the same it only increases power yet it's proven that it also affects the speed.

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    • When the blog is done I plan on doing a Goku vs (Game) Sonic thread

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    • Ah everyone's being too hopeful. Well on the Blog Post it technically supports a 28X FTL SSJ Goku and 100% Frieza but there's still needs to be a community decision for that so I'd suggest you fight hard to get it accepted...

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    • SchutzenDunkelZiel1217 wrote:
      Ah everyone's being too hopeful. Well on the Blog Post it technically supports a 28X FTL SSJ Goku and 100% Frieza but there's still needs to be a community decision for that so I'd suggest you fight hard to get it accepted...

      How far are you into the blog?

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    • It's technically done but I'm trying the do the finishing touches to make it appear shorter. I kinda went overboard and typed over 1200 words for it...

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    • It's done feel free to notify me of any mistakes I may have made. I was quite hasty with it so there may be a few mistakes...

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    • My personal opinion on this will be using something that most likely wasn't used so far in this blog(I didn't bother browsing every single response, so I may be wrong), but we already have a speed feat for Goku AND Piccolo for that matter back in Dragon Ball. Goku and Piccolo for the first time in the manga, during the tournament, reached a speed where the NORMAL HUMAN eye can't follow them. We know that normal humans can see supersonic objects(granted, it's most often a blur, but the important thing here is that they saw SOMETHING). Hence, Goku and Piccolo are supersonic back in Dragon Ball. Then, all you really need to apply are the power boosts Goku received between the end of Dragon Ball, and onto the Namek Saga. I'm not able to bring a precise answer, but I believe this is a more solid base to start from than most of the arguments I've seen until now.

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    • So due to my current situation and the problems with the device I am using at the moment, can someone briefly summarize whether or not the speed will be upgraded, and if so, to what levels?

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    • Sheoth wrote:
      So due to my current situation and the problems with the device I am using at the moment, can someone briefly summarize whether or not the speed will be upgraded, and if so, to what levels?

      I believe its being accepted, when the upgrades take place idk.

      we got a calc that is accepted to that Namek SSJ Goku is 28X FTL, KaiokenX20 14XFTL KaiokenX10 7XFTL

      if you mean how do other characters scale off this im not sure

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    • Since Dragon Ball Kai is a valid canon source now... Why not try and scale the timeframes off those scenes? Could that be useful?

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    • FanofRPGs wrote:
      When the blog is done I plan on doing a Goku vs (Game) Sonic thread

      Why? Sonic gets flattened. You can't be serious...

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    • He means SSJ Goku vs (Game) Super Sonic. The Goku he's using would be before Battle of Gods.

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    • Unless Sonic gets all his feats, even the ones considered "Outliers" he's losing against him. Full Powered Super Saiyan Form is comparable to Cell who has the ability to potentially destroy stars, same as Freeza if not moreso.

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    • Please stay on topic.

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    • SDZ made a blog post about this. He would probably appreciate your input: http://vsbattles.wikia.com/wiki/User_blog:SchutzenDunkelZiel1217/Goku%27s_Speed...

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    • I already gave him my input about the Multiplier thing, I don't trust multipliers because they don't usually break-even with feats.

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    • I was talking with Sheoth. He asked about the conclusions of this thread.

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    • Antvasima wrote:
      SDZ made a blog post about this. He would probably appreciate your input: http://vsbattles.wikia.com/wiki/User_blog:SchutzenDunkelZiel1217/Goku%27s_Speed...

      Cheked the blog post. it was bloody sweet!

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    • I will check it out.

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    • The link did not work. Here is the correct one: http://vsbattles.wikia.com/wiki/User_blog:SchutzenDunkelZiel1217/Goku%27s_Speed...

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