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  • Antvasima
    Antvasima closed this thread because:
    16:32, January 9, 2018

    This is a continuation of this thread: http://vsbattles.wikia.com/wiki/Thread:1232226

    As of noW the conversation has boiled down to whether these Infinite Speed and Immeasurable Speed feats are legitimate. The conversation seems to be at a stalemate as of now and as such I believe more opinions are needed.

    Note: SSJRyu is indeed allowed to comment here. No other non staff member until further notice.

    Here are some listed feats I believe.

    1. Demigra lives and functions in a timeless void (crack of time) for 75 million years and can even influence the main timelines from there consistently through the entire game.

    2. Demigra and FW have there final battle in this place, along with Goku.

    3. Towa and Mira have always existed outside the flow of time.

    4. Mira and Bardock battle outside time and space in the crack of time destroying part of history.

    5. In DBH Demigra was warping and distorting space and time on a multiversal scale, and trancends it to the real world to, and was about to destroy the entire multiverse and real world and act in the reesulting void, freely creating his own new world from nothing.

    6. Demigra in DBH created his own castle in the crack of time on purpose (timeless void) and can freely function in it and go in and out of it (as can all his minions and the pattrolers). Even stated to be "like it doesn't exist."

    7. All the masters can physically fly through time, across timelines and reach you of their own accord from conton city where they normally are, and are shown flying into the field, and flying out if beaten on their own speed. None of which are pattrolers, most of which do not have teleportation or any of said hax, and many of which are even villains and completly opposition to the time pattrol sans you.

    8. There are many statements of trancending time etc. You can say exageration or interprit them diffrently but if you take them literally they support these points, which is more valid given these feats tahn assuming they are exagerations.

    9. Demigra can act in multiple timelines and multiple points of time and space simoltainiously with many clones that share a collective conciousness in DBH and can freely be moved or created wherever and whenever. They can do what he does and continue to act as an extension of his will even if his body is gone. I would see this as a form of immesurable speed if one conciousness can act in past present and future simoltainiously.

    10. Demigra's dark energy permiates all the multiverse and trancends it to go beyond to the real world. It is controlled by Demigra completly, and continuously passively gives him kiri, supresses or nulifies foes power and abilities etc. Can create clones, wormholes that can transport things and shoot energy blasts anywhere and when, mind control and posses people, ressurect the dead etc. Also it can act on it's own even taccording to his will when he's not around showing it's collective conciousness further. This would likely be a form of omnipressence or nigh-omnipressence.

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    • What was the conlcusion so far?

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    • I'm mostly neutral on this, but the problem I have with what Matthew said so far is that his first argument (everything they do is measurable) could be used to downgrade just any franchise with infinite or immeasurable ratings.

      That's roughly it. I'll be mostly a spectator.

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    • Seemed to be a stalemate between yes and no.

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    • I'd say the debate is overall a stalemate between Ryu and Matt.

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    • I can write a lengthy response to every feat. I would also like to see scans.

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    • A lenghty response would be appreciated, yes.

      I think he posted scans in the first thread. I'll dig them up.

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    • I'm not a staff member buf I need to inform you guys this:

      Bluetrekking has told me that he will go looking for the scans and that he will post them here when he can.

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    • Towa and Mira's natural flow of time statement is supported by two scans:

      1 2

      Demigra fighting FW in the crack of time (a timeless void).

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    • PaChi2
      PaChi2 removed this reply because:
      .
      23:20, January 4, 2018
      This reply has been removed
    • "1. Demigra lives and functions in a timeless void (crack of time) for 75 million years and can even influence the main timelines from there consistently through the entire game."

      I fail to see how this is an Immeasurable feat. We need far more evidence and understanding than just "Lol, was inside a void". The fact that he was in a timeless void for a period of time is also lol.

      "2. Demigra and FW have there final battle in this place, along with Goku."

      This honestly just gives further credit to it not being a timeless spaceless void, as characters like Goku who demonstrate no evidence of immeasurable speed and are undoubtedly not immeasurable can fight there.

      "3. Towa and Mira have always existed outside the flow of time."

      As was said dozens of times in dozens of threads, this has nothing to do with speed, or with Towa and Mira suddenly being some higher-dimensional cosmic beings, or whatever them literally transcending the concept of time would entail.

      It just has to do with them traversing through time and timelines. Which isn't speed, is Time Travel. Doesn't make them Immeasurable when not time traveling.

      "4. Mira and Bardock battle outside time and space in the crack of time destroying part of history."

      Evidence of this? Also, destroying time doesn't give you immeasurable speed.

      "5. In DBH Demigra was warping and distorting space and time on a multiversal scale, and trancends it to the real world to, and was about to destroy the entire multiverse and real world and act in the reesulting void, freely creating his own new world from nothing."

      >Demigra affecting the real world

      Lol, definitely not. Also, distorting time with your power =/= Immeasurable speed.

      Again, mixing time-related powers with immeasurable speed.

      "6. Demigra in DBH created his own castle in the crack of time on purpose (timeless void) and can freely function in it and go in and out of it (as can all his minions and the pattrolers). Even stated to be "like it doesn't exist." "

      "Like it doesn't exist" what? Time? More context. And once again, this is just a "Moving inside a void" thing without further evidence. Moving within voids by itself is not acceptable for immeasurable speed.

      "7. All the masters can physically fly through time, across timelines and reach you of their own accord from conton city where they normally are, and are shown flying into the field, and flying out if beaten on their own speed. None of which are pattrolers, most of which do not have teleportation or any of said hax, and many of which are even villains and completly opposition to the time pattrol sans you."

      They have Time Travel abilities. That's it. The car from Back to the Future isn't Immeasurable in speed when not time traveling just because it can move through time.

      "8. There are many statements of trancending time etc. You can say exageration or interprit them diffrently but if you take them literally they support these points, which is more valid given these feats tahn assuming they are exagerations."

      Like it has been said on literally every single thread of this ad-nauseaum, they have nothing to do with speed. They have to do with being able to leave one's own timeline and time travel.

      "9. Demigra can act in multiple timelines and multiple points of time and space simoltainiously with many clones that share a collective conciousness in DBH and can freely be moved or created wherever and whenever. They can do what he does and continue to act as an extension of his will even if his body is gone. I would see this as a form of immesurable speed if one conciousness can act in past present and future simoltainiously."

      This isn't Immeasurable Speed. He is just sharing his consciousness throughout multiple bodies.

      "10. Demigra's dark energy permiates all the multiverse and trancends it to go beyond to the real world. It is controlled by Demigra completly, and continuously passively gives him kiri, supresses or nulifies foes power and abilities etc. Can create clones, wormholes that can transport things and shoot energy blasts anywhere and when, mind control and posses people, ressurect the dead etc. Also it can act on it's own even taccording to his will when he's not around showing it's collective conciousness further. This would likely be a form of omnipressence or nigh-omnipressence."

      >Demigra affecting the real world.

      Once again, no.

      And this would just be Omnipresence or Nigh-Omnipresence and would scale to absolutely no one.

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    • Kepekley23 wrote:
      Towa and Mira's natural flow of time statement is supported by two scans:

      1 2

      Demigra fighting FW in the crack of time (a timeless void).

      Pretty sure Azzy has analyzed / addressed these and other statements. The fight honestly just gives credence to it not being a speed feat.

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    • Well, the crack of time was stated countless times to be a timeless void, so we at least know this is true.

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    • Not denying that. I'm just saying that it isn't treated as anything special in Xenoverse.

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    • I am busy tonight, but can get all the scans tommorow night if needed, as it will take time to find and organize them all again, and I will explain to Matt again why all the points prove infinite/immesurable speed at that point. 

      Also Bluetrekking, Julian and  Zenkaibattery1 all know these feats well and have valuable input, so I would recomend allowing them to speak on the topic as well.

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    • I should also mention that the XV1 Future Warrior is blatantly bound by linear time, as Towa time paradoxed him at the end of the second game.

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    • XV1 FW is 4-A, that is to be expected.

      EDIT: Nevermind.

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    • I disagree with allowing them to speak with you, this is supposed to be a staff-only thread. If they are to speak than every non-staff who agrees with me should speak as well.

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    • This is supposed to be less of a clusterfuck than the other one. It's best to ask them for opinions on their walls instead.

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    • If they have something to say, I do not mind if they post it on my wall.

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    • Kepekley23 wrote:
      XV1 FW is 4-A, that is to be expected.

      EDIT: Nevermind.

      .*spits in tea*

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    • Dragonmasterxyz wrote:
      If they have something to say, I do not mind if they post it on my wall.

      Likewise. Either in support or critique.

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    • Unite My Rice wrote:

      Kepekley23 wrote:
      XV1 FW is 4-A, that is to be expected.

      EDIT: Nevermind.

      .*spits in tea*

      That's what the Nevermind is for, you erasing biaotch. How about I erase you off this thread instead?

      ovo

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    • J-Man has come to say that he disagrees with Immeasurable, but is fine with "Possibly Infinite"

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    • Seems like a lot of people are with Ryu.

      I will see what this leads to.

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    • I disagree with both Immeasurable and Infinite.

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    • At this point, I'm just playing Devil's Advocate for both sides, lol

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    • Scan One: Was this due to the direct power of their battle, or because a time paradox changed the future?

      Scan Two: He's just talking about affecting a different world outside their world. Evidence that this is Real Life? And obviously Demigra can't affect real life, don't take it seriously.

      Scan Three: Pretty sick Time Stop feat. Nonexistent speed feat, tho.

      Scan Four: It says that they cross the multiverse but I see no further evidence or context. Where is the proof that this is being done? Also, it appears that they are going through some kind of portal.

      In either case, traversing the multiverse =/= Immeasurable speed. It can be done by simple MFTL+ speed.

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    • Azathoth evaluated that immeasurable is out of the question, but that infinite might be arguable.

      However, as Matthew mentioned, most feats of moving within a timeless void within fiction involves characters that have not demonstrated anything remotely approaching infinite speed otherwise, as it is a common plot induced stupidity outlier when a universe is destroyed or similar.

      If this is the case here as well, I agree with Matthew that it seems inappropriate to assign such statistics.

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    • SSJRyu said he'd make a huge post countering everything tomorrow. Let's wait for that.

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    • Hmm. This discussion is like a Duracell bunny, it just keeps going and going.

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    • Antvasima wrote:
      Hmm. This discussion is like a Duracell bunny, it just keeps going and going.

      I agree. I feel that it will have to come to a democratic decision. I feel that if let loose this will become another thread with 300+ posts.

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    • Antvasima wrote:
      Hmm. This discussion is like a Duracell bunny, it just keeps going and going.

      Lol

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    • Antvasima wrote:
      Hmm. This discussion is like a Duracell bunny, it just keeps going and going.

      Ant, that's the Energizer Bunny.

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    • Let's not derail, please.

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    • Agreed. It was probably the same idea marketed under different brands in different areas.

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    • PaChi2
      PaChi2 removed this reply because:
      staff only
      18:05, January 5, 2018
      This reply has been removed
    • Alright, I will address this.

      First off we have all pretty much agreed it is a timeless void.  Even Matt has said "Not denying that."  So that much is out of the way.

      Next we get into the feats themselves.

      1. Demigra lives in a timeless void for 75 million years from the perspective of Kai of time, gathering power, and can act not only in the void but effect the timelines from the void to.  He does this through the entire game consistently as well.  Therefore you cannot call it inconsistent as he spends the majority of his time in the void, and performs most of his feats from within it.

      2.  Demigra and the future warrior having a final battle in the crack of time further shows Demigra and others of his level can naturally function in such a place consistently, it actually strengthens the argument that it is a natural state for him, and others can keep up, not diminishes it.

      3. Demigra also after escaping can freely enter and exit the void and even creates his castle in it during DBH on purpose because it is so natural to him.  They state it's like his castle doesn't exist, due to it being in a void and part of a void.  Furthermore all his demon minions and time breakers, show they can freely live in such a place as well.  This further shows it is a natural place the cast can live in.

      4. Towa and Mira are stated to exist outside the flow of time, and have been shown to easily traverse it.  That natural state further shows that existing in a timeless void outside time is completely normal to them, further proof that a timeless void is a natural state, and they can freely traverse time in any direction through travel to.

      5. Mira and Bardock battling in the crack of time is further showings of existing and acting in a timeless void for more characters, again proving it is a natural state they can exist and act in as well.  Nobody is saying that destroying part of history is a speed feat, this is further proof of existing and fighting in a timeless void.

      6. Demigra was warping the multiverse and real world as it is portrayed in the game, no "lol no" is needed as it is as I say it is, which was transcendent to the multiverse.  But the point was not the warping, it was the fact he transcended the multiverse and was going to act in a timeless void after destroying it all, then creating a new world in his image where he is god. 

      7. No, the masters are shown flying in and out of the field, have not shown teleportation and are not part of the time patrol.  Show actual proof they are using some hax or machine to fly there or your just assuming they are when what is shown says otherwise.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzpIcG9-srE

      Flash got immeasurable speed for travel due to being able to move in time like this, Flowey got outright immeasurable for it, it's double standards to deny them the same thing unless you can prove they used something other than travel.

      8. Transcending time is indeed infinite/immeasurable speed.  It depends on how the statements are taken, literal, or as hyperbole.  The whole reason they were dismissed is due to people assuming it refers to time manipulation, but given the current feats that assumption is no longer relevant or needed.  Given the feats they can substantiate the infinite/immeasurable feats rather than being assumed to pertain to time manipulation feats.  Please show actual proof they are not literal when there feats would actually fit in line with them transcending time in multiple cases.

      9. Having a single consciousness present in multiple points of space and time simultaneously, and being able to act at multiple points in space and time simultaneously is immeasurable speed.  If I can attack you in the past present and future at once that is not simply linear attack speed.  Technically they are the same being as they share the same consciousness in tandem.

      10. Omnipresence over time and space is a form of speed.  But at least you agree it is Omnipresence.  That is some progress.  Although i agree omnipresence doesn't scale, only Demigra and others who use the skill would have it.

      Second, there seems to be some confusion on what entails counting as a infinite speed feat for a timeless void.  I will go over what the current ruling on it is and use some examples that have set a precedent for what is and isn't acceptable to prove my points.  It is no different than a precedent set in a court room, it keeps things fair and unbiased to set a precedent.

      So it states for moving in a void "Characters who showcase the ability to move freely and naturally in a timeless void may qualify for an infinite speed rating so long as it is not a huge Outlier or Plot-Induced Stupidity or Inconsistency. Such feats will have to be very carefully evaluated on a case-by-case basis."

      Now, can we call void feats in DBX/DBH outlier or inconsistency?  No.  We have over half a dozen direct feats above of multiple characters including Demigra, Towa, Mira, Bardock, Goku, FW 1 and 2, kai of time etc moving in such voids, and fighting in such voids.  SO not outlier or inconsistency. 

      Furthermore Demigra himself thrives in such a place for 75 million years from kai of times perspective, gaining power, and being able to influence the outside timelines directly from said void showing he can fully act on normal time from such a state, and it is stated the time breakers like towa mira etc also naturally exist outside of the flow of time and transcend it, so it is clearly a natural state.

      It literally hits all the criteria for gaining the speed upgrade.

      And for those who argue they have shown linear time feats so they don't qualify, 99% of characters with infinite/immeasurable speed feats also show or seem to show to the viewer linear speed feats as well, so that is not enough to ignore consistent infinite/immeasurable speed feats.

      Now for some of those precedents I talked about.

      Dimentio "Infinite (Was going to destroy every single timeline, exist and move within the utterly timeless void of nonexistence, and then create his own space-times)" Demigra has the exact same feat in heroes as listed above, but on a higher scale including the real world to.

      Gallantmon "Infinite (Capable of fighting Beelzemon, who is a native to the Dark Area, a realm in which time does not exist). Possibly Immeasurable (Capable of moving through time and space, and is comparable to Alphamon who transcends it)" Just for fighting a person who lives in a void he gets infinite speed, which Demigra does live in one, and many who fight him would scale for it according to this precedent. And for being able to freely move through time and space, like the masters etc. and being compared to a guy said to transcend it multiple times, like Demigra and Mira, he gets immeasurable as well. Feats and statements are very similar.

      Solaris "Infinite (Was collapsing and consuming all of time, merging past, present and future into one single void, and could still move and perfectly function in such a state)" For merging the timelines and destroying them and still being able to move in it despite it going to turn into a void, in heroes again Demigra transcended the multiverse to go to the real world and was "causing them to overflow" referring to timelines into each other and still is fine, and was going to act in a void afterward when it all was destroyed.

      Time eater "Infinite (Can move and function after erasing time and space)" Demigra does this all the time as seen in many feats above, and they move in a void all the time in the game.

      Flash "Immeasurable by running through time."  the masters easily fly through time without any proof of them using hax or other methods, just flight."

      Flowey "Immeasurable (Capable of instantaneously switching between multiple SAVE files and moving outside of them without any adverse effects, indicating he is beyond basic space-time.)" Literally for switching between timelines and moving through them freely or out of them he got immeasurable, something demgira, towa mira, even the masters can do as seen above in terms of moving through timelines, voids, to any point in time and space freely through flight etc.

      So to sum up, they definably meet the criteria for infinite speed feats via a timeless void imo and I’d be surprised if that wasn't at least accepted.  They also do actually show immeasurable speed feats, albeit not as many, but some, and should get immeasurable imo, if not outright at least for travel.  And Matt actually agreed that Demigra is Omnipresent in heroes due to his evil energy state I brought up from what I understand, so at least that is progress.

      Edit: Going to sleep so will check back tommorow night.

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    • I will respond tonight when I have time.

      But one point:

      1) Stop saying I did things when I didn't. I am not agreeing with any part of the upgrade yet.

      2) Stop bringing up other fictions without further context. Like, seriously. 75% of your argument is going "They got it so DBX should get it too".

      That's not an argument.

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    • ^ He was not talking about you agreeing with the upgrade, but you agreeing with the fact that the Crack of Time is a timeless void.

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    • I can take Infinite Speed, but not Immeasurable and i'm waiting before for the new Xenoverse DLC since it might will help for this thread.

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    • Agreed, DLC 6 is supposed to have some pretty big changes.

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    • Promestein
      Promestein removed this reply because:
      Staff
      02:51, January 7, 2018
      This reply has been removed
    • @Matt

      1) I was refering to you agreeing that it is a timeless void, which you did, and when you mentioned that Demigra's skill would indeed be omnipressence for point 10.  I didn't say you agreed to all the upgrades.

      2) They are relevant, as they set a precedent for what qualifies for infinte/immesurable speed.  And they did have context, I listed the reasoning for them getting speed ratings from several popular profiles, and very similar feats that have been done by DBX/DBH characrters that would logically yield the same results in an unbiased situation.  If they have very similar feats it is only logical that the same standards be applied.  It is a very good argument, they use the same arguemnts in a court of law to determine fair and unbiased verdicts consistently when situations are similar.

      I will likely not be on late, but I will chack back to see within 24 hours.

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    • @Dark Yeah there is more proof for at least infinte at this time for sure.  Glad you agree with that much.  Like I said, I would be suprised if at least that wasn't accepted.

      What exactly seems off about immesurable speed though?  Maybe if I know what your looking for as confirmation i can add more parts to that argument.  They can freely move in any direction in time via flight which would be immesurable speed like seen with the flash travel and flowey hoping through timelines, from what I understand, Demigra can control multiple bodies at multiple points in space adn time suimoltainiously with one conciousness, essentialy making them one being, and they have been said to trancend time and space multiple times, and we know they can act outside time and in voids, which would at least show they aren't stuck at finite linear speeds.  I think these would qualify for immesurable, or at least possibly immesurable like gallantmon who got it for similar things from my understanding.


      @UMR and Dark For sure, I can't wait for DLC 6.  I have a strong feeling it will set up Xenoverse 3.  Also tournament of power story arc ftw.

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    • Okay, let's answer in full...

      '1. Demigra lives in a timeless void for 75 million years from the perspective of Kai of time, gathering power, and can act not only in the void but effect the timelines from the void to. He does this through the entire game consistently as well. Therefore you cannot call it inconsistent as he spends the majority of his time in the void, and performs most of his feats from within it".

      Again, this is inconsistent with the entirety of the setting, and simply being inside a void is not enough for Immeasurable or Infinite speed. You need to originate from a dimension / reality without space-time and, prefferably, have something more to back it up than just voids.

      "2. Demigra and the future warrior having a final battle in the crack of time further shows Demigra and others of his level can naturally function in such a place consistently, it actually strengthens the argument that it is a natural state for him, and others can keep up, not diminishes it."

      Not at all. It shows that characters who are clearly linear, not beyond space-time, and who follow the flow of time and causality like normal people can function there normally. It gives credence to it not being an actual void.

      "3. Demigra also after escaping can freely enter and exit the void and even creates his castle in it during DBH on purpose because it is so natural to him. They state it's like his castle doesn't exist, due to it being in a void and part of a void. Furthermore all his demon minions and time breakers, show they can freely live in such a place as well. This further shows it is a natural place the cast can live in."

      The castle "Not existing" but also existing due to being part of the void has absolutely nothing to do with speed. Seriously. It's like you take literally any feat related to voids or time and stretch it to mean speed.

      "4. Towa and Mira are stated to exist outside the flow of time, and have been shown to easily traverse it. That natural state further shows that existing in a timeless void outside time is completely normal to them, further proof that a timeless void is a natural state, and they can freely traverse time in any direction through travel to."

      This has nothing to do with speed. It is Time Travel. They are capable of leaving their timeline and time traveling. If you honestly think they have Infinite Speed then even 4-B / 4-A people would have Infinite Speed in Xenoverse.

      "5. Mira and Bardock battling in the crack of time is further showings of existing and acting in a timeless void for more characters, again proving it is a natural state they can exist and act in as well. Nobody is saying that destroying part of history is a speed feat, this is further proof of existing and fighting in a timeless void."

      Argument from repetition and exhaustion. I already explained why this has nothing to do with speed and actually weakens the claim.

      "6. Demigra was warping the multiverse and real world as it is portrayed in the game, no "lol no" is needed as it is as I say it is, which was transcendent to the multiverse. But the point was not the warping, it was the fact he transcended the multiverse and was going to act in a timeless void after destroying it all, then creating a new world in his image where he is god. "

      He really doesn't transcend the multiverse nor can he affect an actual real world. And this has absolutely nothing to do with speed.

      "7. No, the masters are shown flying in and out of the field, have not shown teleportation and are not part of the time patrol. Show actual proof they are using some hax or machine to fly there or your just assuming they are when what is shown says otherwise."

      "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzpIcG9-srE

      Flash got immeasurable speed for travel due to being able to move in time like this, Flowey got outright immeasurable for it, it's double standards to deny them the same thing unless you can prove they used something other than travel."

      Flash has Immeasurable Speed when time travelling, and Flowey's speed is due to completely different reasons which you would know if you looked at Undertale threads and blogs.

      Flash isn't Immeasurable when not time traveling and neither would any of these people.

      "8. Transcending time is indeed infinite/immeasurable speed. It depends on how the statements are taken, literal, or as hyperbole. The whole reason they were dismissed is due to people assuming it refers to time manipulation, but given the current feats that assumption is no longer relevant or needed. Given the feats they can substantiate the infinite/immeasurable feats rather than being assumed to pertain to time manipulation feats. Please show actual proof they are not literal when there feats would actually fit in line with them transcending time in multiple cases."

      Ever heard of Burden of Proof? It is your job to prove that they are literal, reliable, consistent, and legit. Not our job to prove the contrary.

      But it is a good thing that they can be disproven before you even attempt to prove them. As stated to exhaustion by Azzy, myself, and others, they have nothing to do with speed, but actually with time travel and such things.

      You cannot deliberatedly ignore context and go for the highest possible interpretation of a statement due to your liking of a series.

      "9. Having a single consciousness present in multiple points of space and time simultaneously, and being able to act at multiple points in space and time simultaneously is immeasurable speed. If I can attack you in the past present and future at once that is not simply linear attack speed. Technically they are the same being as they share the same consciousness in tandem."

      No, it really isn't. If I have 10 clone bodies, each in a point in time, and a consciousness shared between them, all that amounts to is that I have a tenfold vision. Each body in each point of time will still perceive things linearly like a normal human.

      "10. Omnipresence over time and space is a form of speed. But at least you agree it is Omnipresence. That is some progress. Although i agree omnipresence doesn't scale, only Demigra and others who use the skill would have it."

      It scales to no one.

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    • Zenkai stated that he thinks (I'll edit here to match how we treat the others) "Infinite, possibly Immeasurable"

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    • I think that Matthew makes sense.

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    • All in all, I agree with Matt (yes, I did read that wall of text).

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    • Azzy also agrees with me I think.

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    • From Blue,

      "@Matt, at least in DBH, Demigra predates time as he predates TokiToki (the bird that started time in the multiverse.) That should at least count towards infinite speed.

      As for Demigra affecting "the real world", he does this in a DBH spin off manga. The real world in the manga is basically a place filled with tons of author avatars like Toribot that decide the events of the DB multiverse, view it as fiction and only interact with it by sending weaker avatars into the multiverse. Not really relevant on this wiki as we don't use it, but I thought I should bring it up."

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    • I think Demigra affecting the "Real World" in a DBH Spin-Off manga involving stuff like the Toribot is obviously a gag and you shouldn't use it.

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    • This is starting to become bothersome.

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    • Yeah, very much so.

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    • Blue brought up a good point that would scale to Demigra.

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    • I would need scans to believe it. Word alone from him doesn't convince me.

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    • From Zenkai,

      "@mat.

      I'll post scans after my flight. Of Demigra transcending the multiverse and characters stronger than him doing the same thing and affecting the real world where world=dimension"

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    • Looking forward to debunking them.

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    • Matt.  You are ignoring the majority of the actual arguments and just repeating your opinion on if the feats count or not.  You saying that the void feats don't count as speed feats is not proof that they aren't actual speed feats, it is your opinion without actual criteria or set precedents to back it up.  You are basically ignoring the given criteria for void feats counting as speed feats in favor of your interpritation of if you think the feats deserve to apply or not.


      The criteria for badem is, is it outlier, is it inconsistent, and can they move naturaly and exist in such a place.  I have proven with evidence that void feats are not outlier as they happen many times with many characters, they are not inconsistent as it is literally said those characters exist in such places and outside the flow of time many times, and they are consistently shown in such places like Demigra through the entire game and 75 million years, and even afterward he goes back on purpose to live there again in his castle.  Also towa and mira show many similar feats etc. They can and do exist in such a place naturally as I have proven.  They literally meet all the criteria that is set forth by the standards on the speed page.  You saying "It isn't a speed feat" is not sufficient, as it is your opinion, not a standard set, or proof of anything.  Honestly your taking your opinion on if you think they are infinte over the actual criteria lised on the wiki itself.


      Also no, others fighting them in the void just shows they are also on a similar level of speed, it does not remove the void feats in any way.


      You completly missed the point of him trancending the multiverse and destroying it then making a new one.  As I said, it is becouse he was going to exist and act in a timeless void afterward, just like what is listed for Dimentio's feat that gave him infnite speed.  It has nothig to do with the warping of the multiverse for speed.


      Then they should also get immesurable well traveling through time freely just like flash did.  Equal treatment is something that should be given.  As for Flowey I know what reasons, they are given, it is for freely reseting and traveling through timelines and fighting in a void outside the multiverse.  Things the Xenvoerse cast have done as well as listed above.


      The proof is in the feats as i said.  I have provided actual proof in the form of multiple void feats and consistent confirmation of them lviing and thriving in such conditions, travel with flight through time and timelines etc to back up those statements.  You just say "it must apply to time travel only, and it's only hax"  When the actual better feats say otherwise.  There is no context of them being strictly non speed feats.


      So existing in multiple points of space and time at once with 1 conciousness isn't speed?  Well if you say so, but I disagree, it is being a 4D being if you can exist in multiple points in space and time with 1 conciousness, even if you have infnite speed if you get attacked in the past present and future your speed is going to be inferior as it is linear 3D.


      I already said i agree it doesn't scale, but at least you agree on Omnipressence, so that is one point out of the way and can likely be added, of course I can get scans to link to for an explanation.


      Also Demigra effects the real world in game to, so it is relevant.


      Also you ignored most of the other characters who got inifnte/immesurable speed for feats that the xenoverse/heroes cast have also done very similarly.  This is relevant since ignoring that means your giving preferencial treatment to those and denying the upgrades to DB characters despite having virtualy the same feats.


      In the end you are still just saying "void feats don't count for them" even though they fit all the criteria given in the speed page, and your denying them upgrades for very similar feats that resulted in upgrades for multiple popular and highly disscussed verses.


      I am sorry if I sound blunt, I don't want to be rude, but your being very repetitive, and I showed proof that they meet all the given criteria for void feats, and that they match the feats of other characters who have infinite/immesurable speed for very similar feats with multiple specific cases.  I really don't like when there are double standards, even if your not intentionaly letting them occur they are occuring here.


      Edit: btw Azzy said infnite could have an argument even before this argument was fully formulated, and Dark thinks infnite is good to.  And of course many other knoledgeable regulars on DB agree with infinite/immesurable.  So this by no means is one sided even among mods, and i am not alone in my stance.  At the very least there is significant support for infinite speed among mods and regulars.

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    • Im just going to say this, please, dont bring other verses to this thread. Its not necessary to evaluate the feats.

      Also, Im very tired of dragon ball, even more than of Pokemon at this point.

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    • From Zenkai,

      "https://imgur.com/gallery/CTC2f

      Demigra transcended the DBH world and was going to destroy the DBH world and the real world. In super, world means all of existence (even said in zenos profile). "Transcended space"

      In DBH, world means all of existence/the entire dimension they live in. Because when Beat was sent to the DBH world, they said it was a dimensional transfer: https://imgur.com/gallery/CTC2f

      So demigra did in fact transcend the DBH multiverse, which encompasses other games as seen in older scans. Stronger characters than Demigra such as Xeno Goku did the same thing, so did beat and the DBH avatar. If you need scans I can provide. Although, he only did this after he stole towas powers so Towa scales.

      Furthermore, there are dimensional doors in the multiverse, each that leads to another dimension. But 1, and only 1 of these doors transcends the dbh world as stated by Trunks (other scans in comments): https://plus.google.com/113806516725407052781/posts/MKRAE9PmurG

      There are more, but these are the important ones."

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    • Warping time is not a speed feat. Also no evidence of transcendence over the multiverse in those scans.

      Dimensional Doors are just portals.

      The last two scans are the size of ants. I don't think any of us can read them.

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    • Dragonmasterxyz
      Dragonmasterxyz removed this reply because:
      12:24, January 9, 2018
      This reply has been removed
    • It feels like Dragon is a speaker lol.

      Or maybe a puppet. ovo

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    • Repost by Zenkai,

      ""Just portals"

      One, and only 1 of those doors (Created by Demigras magic) transcends to the "Real world" a dimension that was affected due to the transcendence of the DBH world caused by wormholes created by Demigra(where 'world' means the DBH dimension/existence entirely. In Super [As evident in Zeno's profile], Fusions [Shenron stating the world was created with Beerus' help and it would take the power of all of time and space to rival Beerus] Heroes [Beat's friend stating that the "worlds"fate was in Beats hand, while also saying it was a dimensional transfer]

      "No proof"

      This is evident here: https://imgur.com/gallery/CTC2f

      Here, Trunks says "This world is different from your world........... right now, this world is on the verge of being destroyed!...... That's why we need you to leave 'This world' as soon as possible!...... "It can't be 'Your world' was also being affected? Damn.... it Transcended space and went to another world.

      Right there, it is stated by Trunks that the events caused by Demigra (Originally Towa) transcended the space of the DBH world, and was affecting another dimension (the real world). An alternate dimension, that was affected by the transcendence of another dimension is higher dimensional, Mat. That should warrant both High 2-A and immeasurbale speed. Here is proof it is an different dimension/world/existence: https://imgur.com/a/xrNRr and was, again, affected by the transcendence of the DBH world

      Chamel did it after Demigra gave him power and it was stated he was going to collapse both worlds. His presence alone started collapsing both in fact: https://imgur.com/gallery/ZpBpi"

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    • We must be reading completely different scans and series because I don't see proof of neither in any of those three scans.

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    • Okay, guys, pleasd hear this:

      Manipulating time is not, and I repeat, is not a speed feat.

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    • I agree with Matthew and PaChi2 about that.

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    • Should this still be ongoing? It honestly just seems like an endless back and forth.

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    • I suppose not, but it depends on what the rest of the staff think.

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    • I think it should. He mentioned staff members who agree with him, so.

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    • Haven't seen any show up.

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    • Okay, so are there any ideas for a good discussion rule, in order to avoid any further repeat discussions?

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    • "Do not attempt to upgrade the speed of Dragon Ball Heroes and Dragon Ball Xenoverse characters to infinite or immeasurable, as this has been discussed several times before, and has been deemed a misinterpretation of the actual events. The characters have been clearly affected by the flow of time before, and most feats suggesting such a speed are vague and can be interpreted as simple time travel, or time manipulation."

      Kep previously suggested this and most liked it.

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    • That seems fine, although we should probably add a few links to the relevant discussions into the text.

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    • Sorry to intervine, but shouldn't we link to this thread in that discussion rule?

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    • Yeah.

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    • Matthew Schroeder wrote:
      "Do not attempt to upgrade the speed of Dragon Ball Heroes and Dragon Ball Xenoverse characters to infinite or immeasurable, as this has been discussed several times before , and has been deemed a misinterpretation of the actual events. The characters have been clearly affected by the flow of time before, and most feats suggesting such a speed are vague and can be interpreted as simple time travel, or time manipulation."

      Kep previously suggested this and most liked it.

      Now has links to the last three threads about this.

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    • I agree with Matthew, i see nothing solid that makes them High 2-A and Immeasurable.

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    • Okay. You can probably add the latest version of the text to the Discussion Rules page.

      Just make sure to check if there are other rules related to Dragon Ball or Dragon Ball games to place it below.

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    • Added.

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    • Dark649 wrote: I agree with Matthew, i see nothing solid that makes them High 2-A and Immeasurable.

      High 2-A isn't being discussed

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    • Okay. Thanks. Should we close this thread then?

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    • Feel free to do so.

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    • Okay.

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