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  • Antvasima
    Antvasima closed this thread because:
    15:42, January 5, 2018

    I know I did a post on this before that got debunked, but looking at this again, a new reason has come to light that may put the Supernova as an outlier, and that is the sheer JUMP in AP. While characters in FFVII have been shown to be capable of moon or even planet level feats, a solar system level feat is several thousand times that. And as I understand, this site does not treat feats as valid if they are hundreds of times above what is consistent for the series (Like Batman knocking out The Spectre.)

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    • Not really. As we have said, one high-end feat =/=outlier.

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    • Well it depends if the lower feats where casual or the one who preformed the feat in question was stated to be superior or not.

      I'm no FF Expart, I only know FF 12 and 15. Tho I do know we sometimes accept jumps in power if transformations are involved.

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    • And I'm no expert either. But I believe I read somewhere on here that the second highest feat shown was planet level. And I get that high-end feat=/= outlier, but if it's several THOUSAND times higher than even it's closest match without any real canon or story explanation, I think that would put it into outlier territory. Like Superman lifting the book of infinite pages when he's otherwise been shown to be solar system level.

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    • It’s not an outlier; what’s with people trying their butts off to downgrade final fantasy.

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    • Sephiroth uses Supernova in both Dissidia and FF VII so it scales to him at least. Cloud and the rest scales to him for obvious reasons.

      The Jump in AP is to be expected but not an outlier. Also, Sephiroth did get a powerup that explains his jump in tier.

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    • Wait Planet Level... Some FF characters are rated much higher than that. Unless you mean just FF7?.

      Well Super is consistently shown lower than Infinity and the Book of Infinite Pages was Debunked iirc.

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    • "Also, Sephiroth did get a powerup that explains his jump in tier."

      Okay, but what about Cloud and the others being rated at Solar System level without any kind of powerup?


      Also, are the other FF games even canon to each other?


      "Well Super is consistently shown lower than Infinity and the Book of Infinite Pages was Debunked iirc."

      And aren't FF characters consistently shown to be lower than solar system?

      Right now what is considered "outlier" and what is considered "high end" seems really inconsistent. 

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    • The supernova is one of main plot point of the game; why would it be an outlier.

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    • "Also, Sephiroth did get a powerup that explains his jump in tier."

      Okay, but what about Cloud and the others being rated at Solar System level without any kind of powerup?


      Also, are the other FF games even canon to each other?

      Cloud literally was the only person able to harm him even before being infused with Mako energy. So he did get stronger. The rest of the cast has no reason to be less as we dont have previous feats for them that compare them to Seph.

      Dissidia is canon to the games

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    • Knights of the Round was also Solar System level iirc

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    • I don't think it's an outlier when the series has repeatedly shown cosmic level feats like flipping planets and obliterating moons as an aftereffect of the attacks.

      Dissidia shows that Sephiroth can still use Super Nova while in his human form too, so that isn't really much of an argument either.

      We've been through this before with you, Lunacorva, and I don't like having to deal with the same tired arguments every few months.

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    • Well to be fair, these guys are in a single Videogame while Superman has many issues where he's portaid lower.

      Remember that game characters aren't expected to produce feats left and right so you can't expect much.

      The FF games are in different Timelines (I likely wrong as hell tho).

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    • @Griffin

      You're right, virtually all of the numbered Final Fantasy games take place in different timelines, albeit with nods to each of them in many games (the most blatant being X-2's Shinra).

      It's also not an outlier if Sephiroth makes stars explode while in human form too.

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    • I’m fairly certain the FF7 cast also scales to this https://youtu.be/sv9aI5RkoeQ

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    • I think that Reppuzan makes sense.

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    • @ Reppuzan. I do remember the last conversation, I acknowledged it in the OP. My question was based on new information that the characters were only planet or moon level, yet able to survive and contend with the user of a Solar System level feat. Which seemed like a huge gap.

      To use another example, Roshi's moon buster feat is considered an outlier despite being completely canon, since it's so far and above what anyone else could do at the time.

      Which leaves me with the question: What does the gap between established AP's need to be before one is considered an outlier?

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    • The Knights of the Round have a 4-A feat if I remember. So Supernova isn't the highest the game shows, and isn't an outlier.

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    • "Planet Level to Moon level"

      Actually, FF7 is around Dwarf star level with every feat being done by fodders extremely casually.

      So yeah.

      "What does the gap between AP need to be?"

      insane, like 4A to High 6A or 4A to 3A.

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    • Matthew Schroeder wrote: The Knights of the Round have a 4-A feat if I remember. So Supernova isn't the highest the game shows, and isn't an outlier.

      TELL US

      TELL US

      TELL US

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    • I posted knights of the round above for those who want to see it

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    • Could they BOTH be considered outliers? Or is 4-B and higher feats a regular thing in the games?

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    • Sephiroth's supernova is a staple of FFVII and is done all the time in various iterations of the series.

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    • Lunacorva wrote: Could they BOTH be considered outliers? Or is 4-B and higher feats a regular thing in the games?

      No that's ridiculous.

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    • Js250476 wrote: I’m fairly certain the FF7 cast also scales to this https://youtu.be/sv9aI5RkoeQ

      Here’s knights of the round btw

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    • Supernova is also a very blatant 4-B feat, so I am fine with it.

      Zack Fair was killed by ordinary bullets despite killing a deity within the same continuity.

      Final Fantasy storylines are recurrently inconsistent in terms of scale in order to work, or any conflict involving the protagonists could blow up anything from the solar system to the universe.

      Of course, this is common within fiction, and the reason for the area of effect concept.

      Also, as far as I understand Roshi's feat was contradicted by lower full power displays from stronger characters later on, whereas Sephiroth's feat happened at the end of the story.

      And even so, given that we have over 13500 pages within this wiki, it is impossible to ensure absolute consistency between all verses.

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    • @Antvasima

      In Final Fantasy XV, Noctis is scared of falling off a large cliff, and mere minutes later he shatters the arms of Titan.

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    • I think that we discarded the KOTR pocket reality feat, due to that we did not know for certain if it actually contained real stars, and given that Sephiroth's later full power feat was only 4-B.

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    • Those looked liked stars to me

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    • Yeah, the KOTR feat is considered an outlier. Specially since it is so much higher than Supernova.

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    • @Matthew

      That kind of inconsistency is one of my points.

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    • @Js2510476

      It could have been an optical illusion.

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    • So KOTR is considered an outlier, but not Supernova? Even though you just used the exact. Same. Argument I made for Supernova being an outlier (So much higher than other feats)? What was that about inconsitency? 

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    • Supernova is a blatant full power feat from the final boss, whereas KOTR is vague, uncertain, and performed by canonically much weaker characters.

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    • Lunacorva wrote: So KOTR is considered an outlier, but not Supernova? Even though you just used the exact. Same. Argument I made for Supernova being an outlier (So much higher than other feats)? What was that about inconsitency? 

      Are you serious?

      No offense, but why the main feat is done at the end of the game isn't an outlier while a far stronger feat done earlier in the game is an outlier should kinda be common sense.

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    • KOTR is a blatant full power feat performed by the protagonists of the story, or they are the final bosses themselves, depending on the game. 

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    • I thought that they were just a weak early game summon? Oh well, it is probably better if The Everlasting, and others more familiar with the game take over here.

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    • Antvasima wrote:
      @Matthew

      That kind of inconsistency is one of my points.

      Final Fantasy is a prime example of a series where the writers have literally no idea how strong their characters are.

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    • Gargoyle One wrote:

      Lunacorva wrote: So KOTR is considered an outlier, but not Supernova? Even though you just used the exact. Same. Argument I made for Supernova being an outlier (So much higher than other feats)? What was that about inconsitency? 

      Are you serious?

      No offense, but why the main feat is done at the end of the game isn't an outlier while a far stronger feat done earlier in the game is an outlier should kinda be common sense.

      You cannot use that kind of logic when similar logic has already been ignored to even allow Supernova to be considered a valid feat in the first place.

      My first thread about Supernova was that it made no sense since logically, why would Sephiroth go to such lengths to destroy the earth if he could just blow it up with Supernova? 

      The response: "Oh we don't worry about logic because the writers just don't understand how their powers work."

      So the response to the question of: "How can a weaker character use a stronger feat than the final boss?"

      Should therefore be (If we are being consistent): "Oh, we don't worry about logic because the writers just don't understand how their powers work."

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    • I can't use consistency as logic? Alright, whatever.

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    • @Matthew

      Maybe so, or perhaps they simply do not want to break their storylines completely. I mean, it is hard to overlook that Bhunivelze, the Cloud of Darkness, Ultimecia, etcetera, can create or destroy universes.

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    • Gargoyle One wrote:
      I can't use consistency as logic? Alright, whatever.

      Not if you have already ignored consistency. You cannot ignore consistency in one instance, then try to be consistent the next. Either you're consistent and ALWAYS consistent. Or you're not.

      And I've actually been the one pushing for consistency. This site is meant to be objective, and yet the rules used for judging feats seems completely arbitrary. We will apply rulings to one feat, yet completely ignore those exact same rulings for another.

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    • Just because one high end feat is not an outlier =/= another higher end feats is also not an outlier.

      From what I've gathered, Supernova is in actuality, not that special of an attack for Sephiroth overall.

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    • Dragonmasterxyz wrote:
      Just because one high end feat is not an outlier =/= another higher end feats is also not an outlier.

      It does if you the reasoning for declaring feat 1 an outlier could equally be applied to feat 2.

      KOTR is a feat well beyond the Power Level established by other characters in the series and makes no sense in terms of narrative consistency. It is an outlier.

      Supernova.  is a feat well beyond the Power Level established by other characters in the series and makes no sense in terms of narrative consistency. It is a valid feat.

      You cannot tell me you see no issue with that.

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    • No, we simply acknowledge that the writers themselves recurrently do not realise how powerful their characters are in relation to the plot. This is common within fiction.

      However, we also have to try to work out an internally consistent power scale for the characters, and as such it would make no sense for Sephiroth's strongest attack to be weaker than that of the KOTR, or for Piccolo Daimau's strongest attack to be weaker than that of Kame-Sennin.

      We very much realise that fiction is extremely inconsistent, but still have to try to work out statistics that are as internally consistent as possible. That is all.

      I would appreciate if you permanently drop this subject, as I have already worked for 9 hours taking care of this site today, and do not have the time and energy to argue with you any further.

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    • Lunacorva wrote:

      It does if you the reasoning for declaring feat 1 an outlier could equally be applied to feat 2.

      KOTR is a feat well beyond the Power Level established by other characters in the series and makes no sense in terms of narrative consistency. It is an outlier.

      Supernova.  is a feat well beyond the Power Level established by other characters in the series and makes no sense in terms of narrative consistency. It is a valid feat.

      You cannot tell me you see no issue with that.

      Except I am pretty sure there is a feat that supports Supernova. Knights of the Round was it?

      Yet, it is considered a common move for Sephiroth am I correct. Even his base form uses it. Meaning, Supernova is an attack within their power range. They can't just always have solar system busting attacks threatening the characters all the time. That's unrealistic. That's also why we have the difference between Destructive Capabilities and Attack Potency.

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    • I'd be happy to drop it, but none of this makes any sense, you're contradicting yourself mutliple times over, and I'm worried this site is spreading misinformation. 

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    • Lunacorva wrote:
      I'd be happy to drop it, but none of this makes any sense, you're contradicting yourself mutliple times over, and I'm worried this site is spreading misinformation. 

      Listen. We aren't the end all be all for Vs Debates okay? We never once established ourself to be. We fix what we can and evaluate everything differently. We aren't spreading misinformation. We are spreading what we think stats should be based on feats we analyzed. Is it perfect? No. Could we be wrong? Yes.

      The simple fact we have here is Supernova is not an outlier due to how it is later treated in the franchise. If anything Knights of the Round in actuality supports Supernova as it shows that there are indeed higher feats in the series, and yet, Supernova is portrayed as more consistent to those levels based upon how Sephy actually performs it. All the times I have seen it, Supernova seemed to be pretty casual.

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    • @Lunacorva

      No, I am saying that we realise that most fiction does not make any sense in terms of that any attacks from, for example, Low 2-C characters, do not cause cosmic destruction, rather than blow up buildings, but that is to be expected.

      However, if characters within a series display blatant feats that are not explicitly contradicted by those of other characters (such as with Kame-Sennin or the Knights of the Round), or repeatedly by themselves at later points (such as for Superman), we can use them without considering them as outliers. That is all.

      As for the "spreading misinformation" part... Let's try to be realistic here. I take the overall quality of this wiki very seriously, and have probably spent around 11000 hours working to improve upon it over the years, but again, we have over 13500 pages. Ensuring absolute consistency between them and complete perfection in accuracy are impossible tasks. We are simply doing our best to work out as reliable and internally consistent scaling as possible.

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    • @Dragonmasterxyz

      If we're not the be all and end all, then what's the point?

      But let me see if I understand the rules of the site:

      1) The strongest feat in the franchise will be considered valid. Regardless of the gap in power between it and the second or third strongest, unless:

      A) the feat is used in a series with multiple writers.

      or 

      B) the feat is used despite a canonically stronger character not able to perform that same feat.

      Correct?

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    • 1. Nope, as long as the gap isn't utterly obscene it's accepted, such as High 6A to 4A DMC or High 4C to 3A LoZ

      That simple.

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    • I have updated my last post.

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    • Also, do not spam threads by quoting long posts.

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    • "If we're not the be all and end all, then what's the point?"

      Because we have common sense. Logically, we try to have the most accurate ratings. However, we have common sense to know that our ratings aren't the end all be all and are subject to change. The same can be said for every vs community (whether they want to admit it or not). Every vs debater has their own way of debating. Some are more strict, some are more lenient. It depends on the person. And on a site with as many viewers and members as us, we are going to get countless different people with countless different methods to vs debating. The simple fact is that this is mostly a fun past time for everyone.

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    • I agree with Dragonmasterxyz. There are too many different members with different standards in different content revision threads, to be able to ensure absolute consistency between verses. All that the staff can attempt to do is bring some order to the chaos.

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    • That is a strawman, Lunacorva.

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    • Antvasima wrote: I thought that they were just a weak early game summon? Oh well, it is probably better if The Everlasting, and others more familiar with the game take over here.

      Actually its the opposite, its like the most end-game summon.

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    • This topic should be banned.. I think this is the second or third time I saw this since I started coming to this wiki regularly.

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    • Part of it is thanks to Sephiroth vs Vergil being very recent. And the misconceptions of how Supernova works.

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    • Dragonmasterxyz wrote: Part of it is thanks to Sephiroth vs Vergil being very recent. And the misconceptions of how Supernova works.

      Yeah, sounds about right. Like DB, but for some reason people like to accept their word as the end all, be all of vs debates. /coughs Dante vs Bayonetta

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    • Or course this thing with FF7 has been going on for years so this gives people another excuse to complain about it

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    • Js250476 wrote: Or cause this thing with FF7 has been going on for years so this gives people another excuse to complain about it

      Could be this too. I know people who are opponents of the entire franchise just because of 7. That is like me hating LoZ because of Ocarina imo.

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    • I think that Death Battle popularised that Sephiroth's feat was an outlier, but I have been told that they wouldn't give Thor use of his god-blast or highest feats in his battle with Wonder Woman either, whereas they did show this courtecy to her. They seem to play favourites, especially by underrating Goku and exaggerating Superman.

      I mean, we make plenty of mistakes, but they are not deliberate.

      Nevertheless, let's stop this derailment of the thread here.

      In any case, somebody should probably ask The Everlasting to comment here.

      We may also need a new rule, as mentioned above.

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    • @Ant Repp already explained what needed to be said. Anything else is just redundant (like this thread as a whole).

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    • Okay. I just wonder if we should first add a new rule, in order to avoid more of these threads in the future.

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    • I told ever and reppuzan about this thread.

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    • Also DB was more questioning if Sephy was there rather then the supernova being an outlier plus I feel we should try not to bring them up to often it just never does any good from what I’ve seen

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    • Okay. Thanks.

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    • "Please avoid the creation of a Content Revision Thread questioning Sephiroth's Supernova legitimacy, it has been discussed several times and accepted as valid. This does not include any future revision after the FF7 remake."

      How about something like this?

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    • We can link this and this

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    • I made some minor corrections:

      "Please avoid creating content revision threads questioning the legitimacy of Sephiroth's supernova feat. It has been discussed several times and accepted as valid. This does not include any future revisions after the Final Fantasy VII remake."

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    • Also I wouldn’t blame DB for Supernova Discussion this has been going on for years long before the DB was ever made

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    • Okay.

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    • Glad we understand then

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    • So, is my regulation text fine to add?

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    • I agree with it.

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    • Ditto

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    • Fine by me

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    • Okay. I will add it then.

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    • Done. I will close this thread.

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