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  • Dragonmasterxyz
    Dragonmasterxyz closed this thread because:
    Continued here: http://vsbattles.wikia.com/wiki/Thread:1253697
    23:01, January 4, 2018

    Most important scan (s) probably:      

    https://plus.google.com/113806516725407052781/posts/KbiTz6hLzmd 

    ^^ Every single Dragon Ball game is part of DBH. All statements and feats scale to DBH.

    Speed  

    Boudokai Tenkaichi:

    https://plus.google.com/113806516725407052781/posts/bs37qkoJcKg

    Goku and Kid Buu fought at instantaneous speed 

    DBO:

    https://plus.google.com/113806516725407052781/posts/RUztShPpMFk

    Mira transcended time. 

    DBX:

    https://plus.google.com/113806516725407052781/posts/9bgvQT6RZiG

    Towa, Mira and Demigra exist beyond the natural flow of time

    https://plus.google.com/u/0/+rs53abxdafg/posts/NwePaaYAsYh

    Demigra can exist beyond time space and so can the Future Warrior and Goku [Remember that the crack of time is a space/dimension beyond the space-time of the DBX Multiverse]

    https://plus.google.com/113806516725407052781/posts/UHg9rWVSh2M

    Xenoverse Goku knows Cooler, which means their feat of fighting at instant speed stands

    DBH

    https://plus.google.com/113806516725407052781/posts/JvA9zit1boM

    Supreme Kai of time, Vegeta and trunks can move in the Crack of Time. The only people that have been able to exist there have 4-D power. Kai of time is 4-D because she can destroy timelines and Xeno Trunks is stronger than her. An earlier scan about the CoT states it's a dimension beyond the space and time of the 4th dimension 

    https://plus.google.com/113806516725407052781/posts/eiqwVb6Ch49

    Towa, Mira, Trunks and Chronoa exist beyond space and time [This is not referencing the crack of time. They literally just exist beyond it]. By extension so can Demigra

    DBFZ

    https://plus.google.com/113806516725407052781/posts/9A2Ljo5Bvy8

    Hit's attacks are beyond time

    Dokkan battle

    https://imgur.com/GA9ntLd

    We transcend time in dokkan battle

    This would give all if not most game profiles immeasurable speed. Such as the FW, Demigra, Towa and Mira. There are also scans of Mira moving in Chronoas time stop which can't be an outlier with everything showed here.

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    • You can ask the people listed under Dragon Ball in the Knowledgeable Members List to comment here if you wish.

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    • Alright. But what do you think of it

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    • I do not know. Sorry.

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    • BUMP

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    • Most of these seem okay to me.

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    • Recently got another scan of transcending time. Editing the main post

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    • Bump.

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    • @Knight 

      What are your thoughts? Do you agree or disagree? I have also messaged some people to comment here.

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    • I would also like to point out that if Demigra by extension doesn't count...

      Then well, he stole all of Towa's powers when she was killed so :^)

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    • Seems pretty good in my opinion. Everything looks valid.

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    • Most of these quotes sound like hyperbole to me personally.

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    • @Warren

      Not really when there are multiple statements of them

      Goku and Kid Buu are shown in the scan to fight at that speed. On screen feat.

      Mira transcended time as shown in the scan. The scan is translations of a feat shown on screen

      The crack of time is stated to be a space beyond space-time of the multiverse, and they are shown in the scan to exist there.

      Towa and mira exist beyond the natural flow of time, when there was a time distortion they weren't affected at all

      Them existing beyond time and space physically is literaly shown in the scans+ translations are given

      We transcend time in Dokkan battle on screen

      The only real "hyperbole" there is Hit.

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    • There is a point where things stop being a hyperbole. If a feat is shown consistentally I don't see how it can be called hyperbole.

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    • Even if immeasurable is rejected, they should at least get Infinite because Towa and Mira exist outside the normal flow of time.

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    • @Blue

      I'm pretty sure that's immeasurable. Also, there are just way too many statements of them transcending time, existing beyond space and time physically for it to be a hyperbole.

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    • Well, some people have infinite speed because of that so I am not sure. I do however believe this should qualify for immeasurable.

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    • I’ll wait for more opinions on most of these (namely, that of Matt, Ever, and/or Azzy), as I could go either way until truly sold. However, I should point out the ones that are either not legit, not immeasurable, iffy at best, or needs more evidence.

      • Point 1: Fighting in instant transmission. Infinite. Not immeasurable.
      • Point 4: Proof that the crack of time is beyond time? Any scans or quotes? The name alone gives evidence of it not being beyond time, so we’re gonna need far more than your word alone, no offense.
      • Point 5: Same as point 1. Infinite, not immeasurable.
      • Point 6: Same as point 4.
      • Point 8: Not legit, and hyperbole at best. It’s talking about how the ability manipulates time to stop, and not even time travel. Remember, to be immeasurable, you have to be capable of being able to travel everywhere and everywhen in an instant.
      • Point 9: Iffy at best, and that’s generous. Because it’s obvious that he’s not referring to being literally transcendent of time, but that he’s referring to the fact that you reached across time somehow, be it time machine, time scroll, or otherwise, to make contact with him. No different than the blurb about transcending time at the beginning of his arc.

      The ones I don’t have an opinion on are 2, 3, and 7, so you’re best sticking to that. And if you can get evidence involving the crack of time, then my response 4 and 6 is null until further notice.

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    • >The Time Nest is the fourth dimension

      No.

      Also, most of the stuff with "transcending time" seems to just be referring to the ability to do stuff across space and time.

      Also also, the Future Warrior is blatantly bound by linear time since he got time paradoxed by Towa in Xenoverse 2.

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    • @Ever, how about infinite speed? There is enough consistent feats for that.

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    • There really isn't. Most of this stuff is either pulled out of nowhere or taking "transcending time" too literally for reasons I previously stated.

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    • I say so because Towa and Mira existing outside of time. People like Professor Paradox are infinite Speed because of this.

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    • He’s referring to the “moving in instant transmission” moments. And my answer would be no. The two feats are from completely different media, so there’s no consistency there, and in both cases, especially with Cooler, it’s a blatant outlier.

      Edit: ninja’d

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    • The games are connected via the first scan

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    • Hell, Dimentio gets it from a possible void feat he did not even perform.

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    • They’re connected to DBH (Presumably; hasn’t been accepted yet, but I support it for now), not each other.

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    • DBH encompasses basically all of Dragon Ball Media. They're connected, so "From completely different media" isn't exactly true. While I can't solidify this stance further, Dragon Ball Heroes is one of if not THE most connected form of Dragon Ball Media there is so it isn't out of the question at all.

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    • @Akr. I know that. DBH may be the tree that holds all the different branches of the media together, but the branches are still separate.

      Bad analogy is bad, but you get the point...

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    • Yes. I did mean it for heroes.

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    • Too bad it isn't connected to the dragon ball spin-Off that has multiple infinite time statements.

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    • Chronoa says "this dimension of time" referring to the time nest

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    • Bluetrekking wrote: Too bad it isn't connected to the dragon ball spin-Off that has multiple infinite time statements.

      Which spin off. I'm sure I can find the scan

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    • Can't remember but it is a spinoff in Saikyo Jump.

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    • @Cal

      Nah I got it, Nice try at the analogy though :P

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    • Also. What about the crack of time being a space beyond the multiverse. I showed the scans and didn't get a reply for that

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    • Moving and not naturally inhabiting the Crack of Time is not Infinite.

      Cooler fighting in IT is a massive outlier and openings aren't canon.

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    • Bluetrekking wrote: Too bad it isn't connected to the dragon ball spin-Off that has multiple infinite time statements.

      Infinite time statements or infinite timeline statements? There’s a distinction. This is borderline derailing by me, so this question will be my last day on that matter, and I’d openly welcome a one word answer.

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    • @Cal timeline

      @Ever Demigra has been in the CoT for 75 million years. That is pretty much inhabiting it. And Towa and Mira were stated to exist outside of time normally without the CoT being mentioned.

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    • >75 million years

      Yep that's definitely inhabiting it.

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    • In fact he was sealed in there

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    • Bump

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    • Well. I've given proof for the crack of time. There is also the fact they physically existed beyond space and time. This isn't stuff out of no where if it is shown in scans and translated. These need to be evaluated as they are directly shown and stated. Them transcending time is not just referring to abilti3is or the purpose of a show. If they transcended time they transcended time. Shown and stated multiple time through multiple media's

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    • I'm still on the fence on the immeasurable stuff, which tbh, is not bad, as normally it would be a straight up no.

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    • My only concern is, how seriously do we take transcending time here, and are we going to treat DBH differently than DBS? Jiren is explicitly stated and shown to transcend time twice and it doesn't play into his speed or AP at all except making Low 2-C more concrete.

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    • Jiren was called an outlier for immeasurable speed iirc

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    • Besides that, do you agree with the thread. The only "debunks" have been that it's an outlier, hyperbole or out of context which I've replied too

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    • I think we should have a point where if some feat such as transcending time is done over and over, it just stops being hyperbole/outlier and turns into an actual feat because almost every dragon ball feat brought up has had the phrase "Outlier" or "Hyperbole" thrown at it, but with Dragon Ball Heroes (Like this thread outlines), the feat is reconfirmed several times.

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    • I love how the Heroes / Toei continuity of Dragon Ball apparently has no outliers.

      Fighting within Instant Transmission is stupid and applying that to make everyone Infinite Speed is contradicted by literally every scene after that in all of Dragon Ball.

      They transcend time because they can time travel. That's it.

      A lot is hyperbole and wanky assumptions.

      Oh, and the Future Warrior isn't Immeasurable or beyond time as he is paradoxed by Towa, and by proxy no one is either.

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    • Also: Post the actual scans and don't link to Google+ of all places.

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    • Instant Transmission leads to a midpoint "teleportation dimension" in some Dragon Ball continuities.

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    • Matt, the instant transmission fighting was done NOT in the official Dragon Ball Media. Every other example from other media sources wouldn't affect this feat (Except DBH where all the continuities are connected). Just because it's stupid doesn't make it untrue. They fought while in instantaneous speed, that much at least is clear and is not contradicting anything. I could easily say "They didn't do it again because PIS" or something like that.

      Matt, No offense, but really. DBH is like the poster child of "Take me seriously" in terms of their feats which gets absolutely ridiculous later on, This isn't Cell's "Hyperbole" statement of where he can blow up a solar system. 

      On that note, how do we prove something is hyperbole? With the Cell example, he didn't perform the feat but everyone still took him seriously. The reactions of the characters or something?

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    • Dude. The Instant Transmission fighting makes no sense regardless of the context, and it also happens in the second Cooler movie. It is nonsense. You can't just accept out of favouritism.

      Also, ever heard of burden of proof? It is YOUR job to prove that it is not a hyperbole by showing evidence that corroborates with the statements.

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    • "Hit's attacks are beyond time"

      Because he stops and skips time.

      "Supreme Kai of time, Vegeta and trunks can move in the Crack of Time."

      Being in such a space isn't grounds for Infinite or Immeasurable anymore unless you originate there.

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    • Okay, I'll pitch in here too.

      Towa and Mira being beyond the flow of time was just them camping out in a universe they owned, which had a seperate timeline. They also time travel, which doesn't qualify for speed featery.

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    • Am I the only one who thinks Buu and Goku fighting in the Instantaneous Movement is badass, and not stupid?

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    • I think both.

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    • Well, the thing is, it's not a feat.

      Instant Transmission leads to a separate dimension from which you reach your destination in some continuities, as explained in a Daizenshuu.

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    • Yeah, they are just fighting in another dimension.

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    • Bump

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    • It happened the first time in the Meta-Cooler movie.

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    • Is anyone gonna mention the existing outside of the flow of time?

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    • They exist outside the natural flow of time. Not another universe or timeline. DMUA, there is nothing pointing at them just existing in another universe. They literally exist beyond the flow of time. There is still Demigra inhabiting the crack of time for 75 million years which still counts as a feat There is them literally existing beyond time and space in DBH.

      the feat and the scan and the translation is given for that

      How is them transcending time just time travelling? They've time travelled so many times yet every time they did, that statement wasn't given. All of these need to be evaluated. Don't just go against one or two scans as if it "debunk" everything

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    • They aren't literally transcending time, they are bypassing it. There's no evidence to suggest that they have Infinite speed, and in fact more evidence they are just using time traveling.

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    • It would have said they were time travelling if that was the case, each time Towa and Mira were time travelling it was stated that they are going throughout history. Bypassing it is complete headcanon. Don't change the point in hand, you said that they are just in another universe when they were clearly were where the FW was and still were stated to exist beyond the flow of time. I don't understand what existing beyond the flow of time has to do with time travelling

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    • If they were really immeasurable in speed, then how is Trunks able to fight them?

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    • What? How does that have to do with anything?

      Trunks is far superior to xenoverse Towa and in Heroes existed physically beyond time and space alongside the supreme Kai of time. He's one of the main protagonists along side the time patrol and consistentally is somewhat comparable to the future warrior. Not stronger. Comparable.

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    • Then post game was confident in his ability to fight the future warrior and base Goku

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    • Anyway. I am currently on vacation so won't be on for the next 2 days. Hopefully this makes progress

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    • @Staff members

      Should we close this thread, or is there anything left to discuss here?

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    • @Ant, no one really addressed the infinite speed feats that concern to Xenoverse and Heroes. Such as:

      Demigra being in the crack of time for 75 million years which is basically inhabiting it.

      Towa and Mira always have existed outside the flow of time.

      Demigra in DBH was going to destroy the multiverse and move in the timeless void. Before you say "void feats don't count", Dimentio has infinite speed far a void feat not even performed.

      Mira and Bardock existed outside outside of time between the dimensions.

      The reason I say these feats are valid is beacause everytime one of these feats happen, they always have some sort of statement claiming that that it is outside the flow of time.

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    • Hmm. You do have a point in that it sounds like infinite speed when you put it like that, but I would would prefer to see what Azathoth and the other staff members think first.

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    • Bump.

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    • There is still things to discuss. Even the transcending time feats. I've refuted the claims made to "debunk" the thread such as "it's just time travelling" so immeasurable speed is still there and is consistent. And cal also thinks the immeasurable speed feats aren't bad. Like, the feats are shown time and time, and stated time and time again. Some feats here such as existing beyond time and space isn't getting addressed and even that is consistent with feats

      Edit: I went through some profiles and some digemon characters have infinite, possibly immeasurable speed for the exact same reasons; as the scans I have brought up. Transcending time, existing beyond time and space etc. Also there's Mira and bardock fighting in a space outside of time. A lot, and I mean a lot of feats from the game franchises happen quite a few time

      The characters the feats here apply to should at least get "at least infinite, possibly immeasurable"

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    • Zenkaibattery1
      Zenkaibattery1 removed this reply because:
      .
      21:23, December 30, 2017
      This reply has been removed
    • Just throwing in my $.02-

      The Crack of Time is an enclosed space separated from the dimension of time

      Fighting in the time nest = destruction of the dimension of time (Clearly this means destroying the time vault)

      As far as speed goes, Demigra post-Toki Toki absorption should be infinite or immeasurable, as he gained control over all of time and space.

      Even Mira who absorbs an egg from Toki Toki, which is stated to be able to create an entire new timeline, should have this speed, but on a much lower scale. 

      The rest is going to be a trip to discuss, the people who are stated to be beyond/outside of time should scale.

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    • Well I'm pretty sure Mira also scales to Demigra since XV2 FW => XV1 FW who by Xenoverse 2 should be equal or slightly above Full Power Toki Toki Demigra. And then Final Form Mira>>>XV2 FW since he needed Goku's help to combat him.

      And after looking at that video the Crack of Time is pretty blatantly outside of time.

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    • Towa is the same as Demigra. Demigra stole her powers in Heroes and was originally the one going to collapse the multiverse. So their stats will be the same. Demigra should also get the hax she has if it isn't already on his profile

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    • Also. Toki-toki is the embodiment of time. And Demigra absorbed him.

      He should have the power to manipulate space and time like:

      He should have all the time manipulation of chronoa


      Restored the multiverse

      https://plus.google.com/113806516725407052781/posts/anW3rUqLzmW


      His body in energy form resembles timelines

      https://plus.google.com/113806516725407052781/posts/SxUNMhvbphL


      Him being used in experiments caused a giant rift in time

      https://plus.google.com/113806516725407052781/posts/8okdNiLxqHw


      Controls time

      https://plus.google.com/113806516725407052781/posts/FSrFdqasKuu


      Sets time into motion

      https://plus.google.com/113806516725407052781/posts/iaDXNTEA8eY


      His eggs create time and timelines

      https://plus.google.com/113806516725407052781/posts/M5turTxs4wj


      Creates time

      https://plus.google.com/113806516725407052781/posts/6Hcf1ikKrag


      Towa said she could rule over tine and space with his egg and it gave Mira limitless power.

      https://plus.google.com/113806516725407052781/posts/diQUfSxzaq3


      Can exist beyond the multiverse and send people through time

      https://plus.google.com/113806516725407052781/posts/FqNVfuWKtz1


      Demigra controlled all of time and space after absorbing him and was going to use him to create a new multiverse

      https://imgur.com/gallery/0cv3o https://imgur.com/gallery/CTC2f


      Was affected by history changing

      https://plus.google.com/113806516725407052781/posts/8RNfDdun57i


      Chronoa uses his feathers to place history in the scroll

      https://plus.google.com/113806516725407052781/posts/YdtZdzrBy1w

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    • Well the scaling is a bit odd. XV1, Demigra absorbs the entire bird, and gains control over "all of time and space", yet was destroyed by FW (I assume the one with SSJ3 Goku isn't the canon ending).

      In XV2, Mira absorbs Towa + an egg with power for a single timeline, and gets destroyed by SSB Goku using dragon fist, and finished off by FW after the egg is removed. It makes no sense that Mira is stronger than Demigra, yet this is what XV shows us.

      Yet in the game, you destroy XV1 Future Warrior who was under Towa's mind control, then you get assistance from full power SSB Goku against Super Mira. There is a bit of conflict where is shows FW evaporating Super Mira after Goku extracts the egg from him. So for scaling...

      1. Enraged Mira one-shots XV1 FW

      2. XV2 FW destroys that Mira, then goes on to destroy Supervillain mode Mira (Mira admits he's stronger, Towa says he's on the defensive as well)

      Sidenote: Trunks and the power of the time vault is unable to go to the timeline controlled by Towa, Towa shocked that her attempt to paradox the Time Patrollers didn't work

      3. Towa was afraid of Mira's core possibly creating an explosion that could surpass dimensions and destroy the time egg, helped FW fight against Supervillain Mira who survives and absorb her

      So SSB Goku > Super Mira >= FW (XV2) > Supervillain Mira > Enraged Mira > Towa > FW (XV1) > Demigra

      There's a lot of conflicting info with Goku/Super Mira/ FW 2, as in a time rift mission, you fight against full power SSB Vegeta who states they are equals (and you need to do all the time rift missions to get the missing details of the plot), in which case the scaling should be SSB Goku (Unamped) >= FW > Super Mira

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    • XV1 Future Warrior was already tired and injured from his fight against trunks and the XV2 FW. So he wasn't completely at full power when he took that blast.

      And SSJB Goku still needed XV2 Future Warrior's help to weaken and destabilize Mira's power so that he would have an opening to steal the egg from Mira.

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    • Even so, a casual ki blast from Enraged Mira put both Trunks and FW on their ass at the same time. And FW is comparable to Goku, but Goku is undoubtedly stronger via dragon fist and kaioken.

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    • >casual

      >enraged

      I don't think that's how it works. ovo

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    • That's what I call the form lol, the only thing I could call it other than Enraged mode is villainous mode from XV1 ovo

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    • At the end of the day, Xeno Goku solos and Grand Priest one shots. I have scans where Demigra, Goku and beat transcended the space-time for the entire dbh multiverse including the crack of time and the spaces beyond time which I will make a thread on sometime in Feb. But let's focus on the speed. Everyone ok with toki toki being the embodiment of time? And the other feats and "debunks" which I've refuted

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    • I would appreciate if somebody could ask Azathoth, Promestein, and Matthew to comment here again regarding the possibly infinite or immeasurable speed levels.

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    • I asked azathoth

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    • It is best if you ask the others as well.

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    • "As far as speed goes, Demigra post-Toki Toki absorption should be infinite or immeasurable, as he gained control over all of time and space."

      I'm... pretty positive that's not how it works. He needs more than that.

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    • Yes, reality warping and attack potency does not automatically mean physical movement speed.

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    • If we went by that logic, many, many characters would get Infinite/Immeasurable speed when they realistically are nowhere near that.

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    • Bluetrekking wrote: @Ant, no one really addressed the infinite speed feats that concern to Xenoverse and Heroes. Such as:

      Demigra being in the crack of time for 75 million years which is basically inhabiting it.

      Towa and Mira always have existed outside the flow of time.

      Demigra in DBH was going to destroy the multiverse and move in the timeless void. Before you say "void feats don't count", Dimentio has infinite speed far a void feat not even performed.

      Mira and Bardock existed outside outside of time between the dimensions.

      The reason I say these feats are valid is beacause everything Time one of these feats happen, they always have some sort of statement claiming that that it is outside the flow of time.

      What about this?

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    • He was trapped in the Crack of Time.

      I don't think Dimentio should have Infinite speed for that feat. We can't use pages with faulty stats for justification.

      Dunno about the rest. It's possible.

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    • Okay. Let's wait for Matthew and Azathoth.

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    • Also, Town and Mira are stated to be beyond the flow of time, and yet, time still flows in their fights. Such examples are Mira fighting the Future Warrior until Goku gave up in the Cell games. Not to mention, there'd have to be so many in Canon characters that would supposedly be immeasurable. Future Gohan can fight Mira, despite the fact that the Androids are an actual threat later, several amped villains like Super Buu fighting the Future Warrior and people like Gotenks or Piccolo matching up to them. It creates a huge inconsistency with what we actually see in game.

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    • Okay. Thank you for the information.

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    • 1. That makes no sense, they're fighting in a place with time so why wouldn't it flow?

      2. Doesn't really create any inconsistencies. The game has Trunks help out FW in his fight with Towa when Trunks has never beaten base Mira before, let alone villainous Mira, and Towa helped FW beat Supervillain Mira, which is vastly above the previous two forms. There's also the fact that Trunks transforms against the android but not against Towa, so unless you're suggesting 17/18 > Towa, that isn't the case.

      They're as strong as the plot needs them to be, which is why you don't instantly one-shot villainous mode Yamcha or Hercule in story mode. 

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    • Also. Many instances shows Dragon Ball doesn't follow this system. Trunks who is superior to Towa has shown he can exist beyond time and space.

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    • Ryu is likely going to comment here when he is free. He will bring in some things too

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    • Also. Freaking kid Buu destroyed a timeline in Xenoverse with towas energy boost. Like. Lmao

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    • He only blew up the planet though.

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    • He was trapped in the Crack of Time.

      Him being trapped in it does not mean it does not serve as an infinite speed feat. He was still there for 75 million years. Him being trapped there simply meant he could not escape.

      I don't think Dimentio should have Infinite speed for that feat. We can't use pages with faulty stats for justification.

      Fair enough but Solaris and Time Eater have Infinite Speed for singular void feats. This is also not an outlier for the sake of the plot as these feats have been done countless times in both Xenoverse and Heroes.

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    • DMUA wrote: He only blew up the planet though.

      NO. He destroyed a time crystal which represents a timeline. Chronoa referred to a crystal as a point in history and the flow of time in it was odd. At the point it was going all of history would collapse.

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    • Alright. It is currently the 1st of Jan 2018 1:20am. So happy New Year. A little messed up right now and will get more messed up. So I won't be commenting here tomorrow. So please don't derail the thread or close it before i come back

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    • It's barely December 31st 10:25 am where I live. But Happy New Year to you too regardless.

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    • Zenkaibattery1 wrote: NO. He destroyed a time crystal which represents a timeline.

      When though.

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    • @DMUA Near the start of the game. Also, what are your thoughts on infinite speed (not immeasurable)

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    • Still dumb.

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    • Why? There are multiple feats. At least give a reason.

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    • And, oh, he's referring to the temporal chain reaction that resulted from history being altered?

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    • I don't really know.

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    • As I already said, if it was the case we'd have a plethora of Canon characters, who should be finite in speed, fight them just fine.

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    • But, 3-A Goku is 2-C because of fighting Demigra and this Wiki accepts that. Zamasu has Mid-Godly Regen, the Time Vault does not exist in the original Canon, neither does Towa, Mira and Demigra. Many things change. It is an entirely separate continuity as well so I don't see anything wrong.

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    • Also, we accepted in the previous thread that there are so much timelines that the characters in DB refer to the multiverse as infinite. This can simply just be seen as another timeline. 

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    • It being dumb isn't a reason for it to not get accepted. The games are a completely different continuity and the feats happen over and over again and there are statements said many times. Finite in terms of this wiki actually, Jiren transcending time was called an outlier iirc, if it wasn't he would just scale the characters above him to immeasurable. You can't say it's dumb as a reason for it to not get accepted. I've already covered the stronger characters in Xenoverse scaling "issues" both infinite and immeasurable speed stands

      The time crystal didn't explode due to a temporal change lmao. It exploded because of dark kid buus power. Similar to how Demigra and Goku and fw were shaking the crack of time. Also. This isn't even the main purpose of the thread. Let's get back on topic please. Refer to UMR's comments as well

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    • I agree with Bluetrekking.

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    • Sweet. What about the speed stuff as a whole?

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    • Promestein wrote:
      He was trapped in the Crack of Time.

      I don't think Dimentio should have Infinite speed for that feat. We can't use pages with faulty stats for justification.

      Dunno about the rest. It's possible.

      I am against Infinite Speed as well.

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    • It contradicts way too much even in the own games, the abudance of "void" feats is actually more evidence that they actually don't mean anything, and it is outlierish. Since even the MFTL+ stuff relies on stuff outside of Xenoverse, but rater Super.

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    • Why? There are multiple feats and statements.

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    • Also, Promestein was not inherently against it, just pointed out somethings.

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    • There are no Infinite Speed feats, much less immeasurable. You are just assuming that moving in a void = One or the later.

      It doesn't. Not in this case.

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    • Also asked Azzy to comment here since I trust his judgment above all others.

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    • Prom isn't completely against the feats, Mat

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    • Why not? They have upwards of 7+ void feats. Characters like Solaris and Time Eater have singular void feats but yet have infinite speed. Demigra was in the CoT for 75 million years. Just because he could not get out does not mean it is any less of a feat. Mira has a statement that he normally exists outside of time as well.

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    • + existing beyond the flow of time +existing physically beyond time and space

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    • Azathoth has debunked the "existing beyond the flow of time" before. Multiple times, in fact.

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    • Quality > Quantity. The fact that there are "7 void feats" is more evidence that these don't mean anything in Dragon Ball.

      Solaris and Time Eater are characters which can destroy / devour all space-time, move through time with sheer speed, and the former is omnipresent throught time.

      And as ws previously addressed:

      They don't exist outside the flow of time or physically beyond time and space. Please don't take statements out of context. This has been rejected before. They simply can time travel.

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    • How are they out of context? The feats and scans are there. There is nothing suggesting them existing beyond time and space is time travel. Umr and myself have responded to them existing outside the flow of time. Even that doesn't point to time travelling at all. Trunks specially said they do, if they were time travelling it would have been similar to chronoa stating they are going througout different histories; this statement is blatantly different

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    • But in most of the feats it has been emphasized that it is outside of time. The whole theme of Xenoverse is that it deals with time and such. In DBH, Demigra was destroying the multiverse and destroyed space-times. In Xenoverse, A Goku that is 3-A is 2-C in Xenoverse and 2-B in Heroes. The games step outside of already established feats in the canon countless times.

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    • In Fusions, KID Goku is 2-C and MFTL+. If that does not step out of established feats I don't know what does. Anyways, You are saying it is outlierish because of DB Super feats. Key word is Super. Why will we scale to Super if the continuity has a plethora of feats and they are being denied because of Super. I am not saying we should not scale from Super but it shouldn't be the first reason we assume a feat is an outlier.

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    • Being outside of time =/= speed, necessarily.

      Also, it was debunked already. Once again, you have already been taking things out of context. Yours and UMR's points are deliberatedly out of context and have been debunked time and time again.

      DB Fusions has nothing to do with anything and doesn't apply to either game.

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    • I won't say anything .. But I want to see where this goes.

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    • But it does. It is connected to both DBH and Xenoverse.

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    • It isn't. It's a game which is non-canon to both. Just having Xenoverse characters =/= Being canon to either.

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    • DBF connects to Xenoverse because they explicitly mention Time Patroller Trunks in Mission 6 .Keep on mind that they name the Time Patrol Trunks differently. Heroes is Xeno Trunks, Xenoverse is Time Patrol Trunks. Them stating " Time Patrol " Trunks implies Xenoverse.

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    • Dragon Ball Fusions

      https://imgur.com/a/PpK21

      Also, in DBH it directly refers to the plot of Xenoverse and in DBH, it refers to Fusions.

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    • Time Patroller Trunks in DBF =/= DBX Time Patrol Trunks.

      That's like saying that any game that has Goku is part of the same continuity.

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    • Also, I am pretty sure this was agreed upon already.

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    • You can't say it's out of context and think it's over and done with. Actually refute the comments. The comments we made are brand new and have not been debunked. They were made in this spfofc thread which no one responded to

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    • Matthew Schroeder wrote:
      Being outside of time =/= speed, necessarily.

      Also, it was debunked already. Once again, you have already been taking things out of context. Yours and UMR's points are deliberatedly out of context and have been debunked time and time again.

      DB Fusions has nothing to do with anything and doesn't apply to either game.

      And what did I say that was deliberately* taken out of context?

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    • @Matt then there is Dokkan which connects them even further.

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    • Bluetrekking wrote:
      Also, I am pretty sure this was agreed upon already.

      It wasn't. Unless you mean agreed between you and the other guy.

      @UMR

      The fact that it has been explained time and time again what these statements actually mean, but people still use them to try and get Immeasurable speed Xenoverse. Either out of ignorance or deliberate ignoring of context.

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    • Goku is a different analogy. Goku has been within everything dragon ball related . Time Patrol Trunks ( not Xeno Trunks from Heroes. They are named differently . ) has only been named specifically " Time Patrol " Trunks in Xenoverse. I have seen both games and all their iterations , That in and of itself shouldn't be an issue.

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    • Zenkaibattery1 wrote:
      You can't say it's out of context and think it's over and done with. Actually refute the comments. The comments we made are brand new and have not been debunked. They were made in this spfofc thread which no one responded to

      They have been debunked and refuted. Sorry if you can't accept it. The "Outside of time" statements have nothing to do with a higher level of existence or speed. It means that they can time travel and move between timelines. That's it.

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    • Matthew Schroeder wrote:

      The fact that it has been explained time and time again what these statements actually mean, but people still use them to try and get Immeasurable speed Xenoverse. Either out of ignorance or deliberate ignoring of context.

      I still don't know what you're referring to.

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    • "As far as speed goes, Demigra post-Toki Toki absorption should be infinite or immeasurable, as he gained control over all of time and space."

      This is not a speed feat.

      "Even Mira who absorbs an egg from Toki Toki, which is stated to be able to create an entire new timeline, should have this speed, but on a much lower scale."

      Neither is this.

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    • That's like saying that any game that has Goku is part of the same continuity.

      Exactly, they are not part of the same continuity. Therefore, using Super feats as a way to debunk Xenoverse feats does not work.

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    • Matthew Schroeder wrote:

      That was already discussed though and they began exploring other options.

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    • You literally debunked yourself. You are using Fusion feats for Xenoverse.

      Also, the Super events still happen in Xenoverse mostly.

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    • But the difference is that Fusions has direct mention to both DBH and Xenoverse.

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    • Bluetrekking wrote:
      But the difference is that Fusions has direct mention to both DBH and Xenoverse.

      They just mention TP Trunks. That's just a reference. And definitely not proof of DBH.

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    • But DBH has direct reference to Xenoverse. One might even call it a follow up.

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    • ^ WHERE .

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    • Xenoverse is canon to DBH.

      DBH isn't canon to Xenoverse.

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    • I think that Matthew seems to make sense, but it is important that everybody make an effort to not let this thread go bad by staying polite to each other.

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    • The fact that Demigra is dead at the beginning of Heroes. The DB wiki considers it after Xenoverse as well. Then there is the fact that it is stated that Demigra was sealed before his death.

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    • Time Patrol Trunks in Heroes has no idea who Demigra is, even though they very well know each other in Xenoverse.

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    • Ever's comment pretty much soloed this.

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    • Antvasima wrote: but it is important that everybody make an effort to not let this thread go bad by staying polite to each other.

      I agree with Antvasima on this part. Lets not make this thread go haywire specially on New Year's Eve.

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    • In fact, I'm pretty sure some manga related to Heroes goes into detail about how Trunks joined the time patrol. And the time breaker logo appears on the Supervillans and Bardock.

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    • Alright. Sorry if I came off as rude.

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    • I will attempt to do so.. Albeit I am unsure of I was being rude.

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    • @The 2nd Existential Seed

      You haven't come off as rude at all.

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    • Ok let's get back on topic about infinite speed instead of discussing canonocity.

      Your debunks were:

      It messes up the Super speeds

      Void feats don't mean infinite speed

      "Beyond time statement" is out of context

      My responses were:

      Everything in Xenoverse messes up Super scaling. Everything in Super and onwards is basically messed up. Most of the 3-A's are now 2-C. I don't have a problem with infinite speed if things like this are the case.

      That might be true however in all of the void feats it is emphasized that they are outside of Time. There is also the fact that Demigra was in the CoT for 75 million years. Just because he could not escaped =\= it is any less of a feat. Demigra in DBH is a being that destroys timelines and such so I see no reason why he would not have infinite speed if that is the reasoning for Time Eater and Solaris.

      Fair enough.

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    • Thanks Julian. On that note, as long as bluetrekking hasn't found more... Concrete evidence .. I don't believe we should be using Heroes to scale to Xenoverse.

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    • @Ever that line about TP Trunks not knowing Demigra is ONLY canon to the manga and never occurred in the games. They have completely separate continuities. On this wiki, we use the games so please stop using that as an argument as if we used both, Demigra is still alive in the manga and not the games.

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    • Hmm... They do ?

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    • Yes. In the games, Dark Dragon Ball Janemba > Shroom but in the manga Dark Dragon Ball Janemba < Shroom

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    • There are obviously more examples.

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    • Scaling DBH to DBX was completely destroyed above.

      "Everything in Xenoverse messes up Super scaling. Everything in Super and onwards is basically messed up. Most of the 3-A's are now 2-C. I don't have a problem with infinite speed if things like this are the case."

      False equivalency. The Super events to a point all happen in Xenoverse 2. It's just the added feats which increase the power level.

      "That might be true however in all of the void feats it is emphasized that they are outside of Time."

      Which does not scale to speed. Also Mira and Towa and Demigra being outside of time = Can time travel. That's it.

      "There is also the fact that Demigra was in the CoT for 75 million years. Just because he could not escaped =\= it is any less of a feat."

      That's not a speed feat.

      "Demigra in DBH is a being that destroys timelines and such so I see no reason why he would not have infinite speed if that is the reasoning for Time Eater and Solaris."

      That's not the reason for them. And if they trouble you so much, I'm fine with downgrading their speed.

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    • @Matt I proved why that statement is not relevant.

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    • What statement? What proof?

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    • The statement about DBH not scaling to DBX

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    • Bluetrekking wrote: @Ever that line about TP Trunks not knowing Demigra is ONLY canon to the manga and never occurred in the games. They have completely separate continuities. On this wiki, we use the games so please stop using that as an argument as if we used both, Demigra is still alive in the manga and not the games.

      This

      Being in a space that lacks time for 75 million years seems like a speed feat to me.

      According to the speed page "Characters who showcase the ability to move freely and naturally in a timeless void may qualify for an infinite speed rating so long as it is not a huge Outlier or Plot-Induced Stupidity or Inconsistency. Such feats will have to be very carefully evaluated on a case-by-case basis."

      So according to this, a void feat can be a speed feat. Is it an outlier? I do not believe so since characters have performed such feats numerous times. Is it an inconsistency? No, given that yet again feats were performed multiple times.

      If enough people agree that infinite speed for Sonic is not legit, sure. But currently the majority agree with it.

      Anyways I am finished debating as it will just become a never-ending back and forth. It is wise if we wait for Azzy's judgment.

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    • "Being in a space that lacks time for 75 million years seems like a speed feat to me."

      It isn't.

      "So according to this, a void feat can be a speed feat. Is it an outlier? I do not believe so since characters have performed such feats numerous times".

      It is an outlier since everything else suggests that they have limited speeds and require time to perform actions.

      "Is it an inconsistency? No, given that yet again feats were performed multiple times."

      That actually suggests the opposite, that moving in a void isn't considered a speed feat in Dragon Ball.

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    • "It is an outlier since everything else suggests that they have limited speeds and require time to perform actions."

      A specific instance where this is shown in Xenoverse?

      "That actually suggests the opposite, that moving in a void isn't considered a speed feat in Dragon Ball."

      How? Everytime a void feat happens, the characters hype it up as some grandiose feat. Like how Towa was hyping up sending the Future Warrior outside Space-Time.

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    • "A specific instance where this is shown in Xenoverse?"

      Every single speed feat in both the manga / anime canon to Xenoverse, and Xenoverse itself.

      "Everytime a void feat happens, the characters hype it up as some grandiose feat. Like how Towa was hyping up sending the Future Warrior outside Space-Time."

      That's BFR. Not speed.

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    • But the fact still stands that they hype up void feats. As for the outlier, again, feats differ. Why don't we assume Goku defeating Demigra an outlier? Why don't we assume Goku defeating Final Form Mira an outlier? Every single AP feat in both the manga/anime canon to Xenoverse suggests otherwise.

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    • How about actually giving them feats instead of just saying "Oh every single one". You're arguing poorly here.

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    • I already gave the feats above...

      Edit: nevermind

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    • Do you want me to post every feat in the Dragon Ball Manga and in Super which shows that they don't have infinite speed?

      You people are arguing in bad faith, just simply ignoring blatant truths.

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    • "But the fact still stands that they hype up void feats."

      Hyping void feats don't necessary mean speed. Context is key.

      "As for the outlier, again, feats differ. Why don't we assume Goku defeating Demigra an outlier? Why don't we assume Goku defeating Final Form Mira an outlier? Every single AP feat in both the manga/anime canon to Xenoverse suggests otherwise."

      Blatant false equivalency. Goku gets stronger as time goes on, but even after he supposedly shows infinite speed, he continuously shows that he doesn't have.

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    • The Goku that defeats Demigra is the same Goku in the BoG arc. So the argument of "Goku gets stronger with time" is true but not in this context. And, I still so no feat of Goku portrayed as finite speed in Xenoverse. As for the "false equivalency", it is clearly the same case. You are stating that Goku is finite speed because of DBS and I am showing you the same argument could be made for his AP.

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    • Well this thread seems to have died down a bit. Well its new years eve and all.

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    • Probably already been mentioned, but I'll just point out now that almost every mention of transcending time in DBH and DBX refers to a character's ability to move outside the normal flow of time and reach other universes/timelines. Said characters still have "normal" speeds when moving inside of said timelines. Towa and Mira would be prime examples.

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    • What, would that be “selective infinite/immeasurable speed”? That’d be a first o-o

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    • Almost every?

      What do you think the characters should get Azzy?

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    • I am not sure, really. Kinda want to look back at some of Xenoverse.

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    • I think Blues suggestion, which UMR backs up, and which dark agrees wjth, and cal things isn't that bad; of infinite speed should be accepted. They have brought up good arguments and there isn't really been a solid debunk on them. The feats are often show again and stated time and time again.

      And I don't fully understand what you mean by your first response in this thread? Are you suggesting they have normal speeds inside the flow of time but can still fight beyond it?

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    • You misunderstand, the statements of transcending Time have nothing to do with speed, including the ones in these thread. There is no Infinite speed, even selective.

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    • Well, clearly there are infinite speed statements if you select and reinterpret the statements the way you want, or else this thread wouldn't exist OvO.

      Just kidding.

      Anyway, I agree with Matt here.

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    • I also think that Matthew seems to make sense.

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    • But it might be best to give Azathoth time to think this over.

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    • I agree with them being infinite/immesurable.  This is due not just to statements but the fact they legit can live in places devoid of time like the crack of time for 75 million years, move through time freely (your masters can hop timelines and travel through time to reach you when in trouble by flight from conton city, and leave of their own accord if beat down enough to go back via flight), exist outside the flow of time naturaly (everybody admits this is infinite/immesurable on some level, only argument is where can it be applied), trancend time (sure you can call it due to existing outside time but in the end that to can qualify).

      So they are not bound by linear time or part of it, as they can travel through it via flight in any direction and even across timelines, and can freely move and naturally live in places devoid of time, and have been stated to trancend time.  So I personally consider them to have immesurable speed.

      I could put together a more detailed argument on it later with scans etc. but this sums up a few key points why I consider them immesurable.

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    • Disagree completely. Time travel and timeleline hopping isn't immeasurable, and the characters aren't inbound by time literally, they simply can do the previously mentioned things, which do not involve speed. They are clearly affected by the flow of time.

      And people disagree with being outside of time making them Immeasurable. You need far more proof than just being in a void.

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    • Matthew Schroeder wrote:

      And people disagree with being outside of time making them Immeasurable. You need far more proof than just being in a void.

      This is true.

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    • At this point I don't know what to say here.

      Time travel =/= Immesurable speed 

      Dimensional travel =/= Immesurable speed.

      I mean, we have Supernatural angels who can do both things casually and can move in timestop too, and none of them is infinite/Immesurable. This means, context is important to understand a feat.

      I don't see a reason to say that XV's feats are related to Immesurable speed as of now.

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    • Supernatural  Angels actually have more evidence of Immeasurable than DBX / H characters, lol.

      Castiel states that he is a "Multidimensional Wave-length of celestial intent", and also that implies that time doesn't apply to him.

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    • Okay. Should we close this thread then? Or is it necessary with a regulation as well, in order to save future time and energy for the staff?

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    • I think the answer to the first is a definitive yes, and quite possibly for the second.

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    • I completely agree with a regulation on this, there's multiple threads regarding the same topic all open at once currently including this one and its starting to grow very repitive to deal with.

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    • Okay, does anybody have a suggestion for an appropriate wording for such a rule?

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    • Shouldn't we wait for SSJRyu to catch wind of this?

      Anyway:

      "Do not attempt to upgrade the speed of Dragon Ball Heroes and Dragon Ball Xenoverse characters to infinite or immeasurable, as this has been discussed several times before, and has been deemed a misinterpretation of the actual events."

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    • Yeah, I think we should wait for him. He is a nice guy, and deserves a chance to respond to Matt or everyone else's arguments.

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    • I would prefer to include brief explanations for why the claims are deemed false within the regulation text. Anyway, I suppose that SSJRyu1 can respond if he wishes.

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    • "Do not attempt to upgrade the speed of Dragon Ball Heroes and Dragon Ball Xenoverse characters to infinite or immeasurable, as this has been discussed several times before, and has been deemed a misinterpretation of the actual events. The characters have been clearly affected by the flow of time before, and most feats suggesting such a speed are vague and can be interpreted as simple time travel."

      Yeah, I agree.

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    • This suggestion is very good, I like it.

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    • That is better worded.

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    • Ummm, Flash "immesurable by runnig through time"   Frisk "immesurable due to fighting after a timeline was erased" Flowey "immesurable for switching and altering timelines in battle".  Consistently people get immesurable for traveling through time via speed and existing and interacting in places devoid of time, and Demigra lived in there for 75 million years without time, so it is his natural habitat consistently, and he can interact with the outside world to from within the crack of time to btw.

      Also claiming since they have seemingly been effected by time before from the viewers perspective somehow nulifies their showings and stated stats happens with virutally every immesurable speed character.  99% of showings from guys like for example shin megami tensei characters, or digimon characters who have immesurable speed seem to take place within the confines of linear time.  It is just a couple feats, or a couple statements that make them immesurable.  Fact is if you can move around in places devoid of time, and even live there, and travel through time freely by flight and not hax, well that logically is immesurable speed, and they can use these skills in actual timelines and from places outside of time to which can effect the normal timelines, so saying they are not usable in normal timelines is false.

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    • If Demigra lived in a void without time for 75,000,000 years, it does seem like he'd have immeasurable speed, but i'll wait for the input of the others.

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    • I was saying the same exact thing as Ryu ovo

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    • How can he be in a vid without time for a period of time. OVO

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    • "99% of showings from guys like for example shin megami tensei characters, or digimon characters who have immesurable speed seem to take place within the confines of linear time. "

      This is blatantly false. Please, don't try to use False Analogies with series that simply have better feats than Dragon Ball.

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    • That is a little too harsh, he is always nice when replying to us and never insults anyone.

      I'm overall neutral on this, though.

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    • @Matt The crack in time is a place without time outside the multiverse, although it is connected to all timelines and points in time via the time shards that can view them, and can view them simoltainiously.  Demigra can also still interact with diffrent points in time and diffrent timelines in non linear fashion as he does through out the game despite being sealed, sometimes simoultainiously.  Basically the place is not bound by time or part of the flow of time so traditional time is meaningless, but from kai of times perspective it was 75 million years, and since demigra can see all these timelines progress as well and is noted to have been there building power for 75 million years, he would have some sense of it I would think personally.

      Umm, how is it false?  Are you telling me most showings in SMT and Digimon would result individualy in immesurable speed feats?  If I picked a random feat in digimon or smt with an immesurable character cahnces are the feat would in and of itself appear to be bound by linear time.  I am pretty sure that most feats of those series individualy are not portrayed as immesurable, just a few that give that rating. So saying that becouse some feats don't appear to be immesurable makes a character's immesurable feats/statements moot is double standards and silly at best in that sense.

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    • The thing is: Being outside the fabric of time, past, present and future is the de-facto modus operandi of most SMT demons and gods. Demons being outside of time in the sense that they are acausal entities who are simultaneously created by human thought and existing in the past where their myths are literally true.

      DBX has nothing on that level.

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    • @Matt

      Which means nothing, as that is not the point of Ryu. Ryu is saying that just because we, the audience, see them fighting normally, does not mean that, from the characters perspective, they aren't fighting at infinite speeds or whatever. To support this, he brought verse where a simple statement (like you just did with SMT) made them infinite or whatever, and by the same coin, that should make DBX infinite or whatever, since Demigra has one of those statements. The "level" of things compared to others are completely irrelevant.

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    • There are no actual statements that make the characters Immeasurable, read above what I, Cal, Azathoth and others have said. This idea is brought by misinterpretations of statements, either innocent or intentional.

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    • I care very little if there is or not, actually. Just clarifying what Ryu is saying, since you seemed to have misinterpreted.

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    • We probably need Azathoth to act as a tiebreaker here. I am uncertain myself.

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    • Pretty much what was said above. I am not claiming they are equal to smt characters, but that you can't dismiss feats or statements that would make somebody infinite or immeasurable based on the viewers perspective of them fighting at finite speeds, which is what was being done as reasoning for ignoring there feats/statements. smt and digimon were just examples of verses that usually are shown in what we would see as the viewer in finite speed in combat, but in reality there few statements and feats dictate they are not actually bound by linear time.

      As for Demigra being infinite/immeasurable, he literally lives in the crack of time for 75 million years in relation to the kai of time's perspective, a place devoid of time and outside the flow of time and even multiverse, and can not only effect things and move around in there, but also even effect things from within such a place that are in the multiverse and in the flow of time to. So naturally existing and living in, and manipulating a place outside of time would be either infinite or immeasurable speed, especially when you can effect beyond it into the timelines to from that place.

      Also the masters are shown to be able to fly through time and even across timelines to in order to reach you at times when your in danger, and split as well to go back to the time nest if beaten up, so travel through time by flight and not hax both forward, backward and across separate time spaces even would be immeasurable speed to.

      And then you get to the transcending time statements, which by themselves could be interpreted as an exaggeration or literal, but since they can literally live in places devoid of time and travel across time in any direction with regular flight, the quotes become substantiation for the feats, as opposed to just unsubstantiated quotes.

      Anyhow, that is how I and many others see it and the reasoning behind it. You may or may not agree but everybody is entitled to their point of view.

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    • Well, I suppose that may make sense, but I am exhausted and overworked in general nowadays, so I am not the best to make a judgement call.

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    • I understand Ant, no pressure. But it does mean quite a bit though that you agree it makes sense, since that means it isn't just an illogical argument, at the very least it is a logical possible conclusion if we both can see the train of thought.

      Anyhow I am going to sleep, but just food for thought on the topic. I'll watch the thread and see what happens, it would be nice if it could be added from this, but perhaps in the future I will make a new thread if it is needed with more in depth scans, analysis, feats etc. since this was just a few basic key points I wanted to bring up on the topic.

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    • I agree with Ryu.

      The premise of them being at finite speed was the fact that the audience is seeing them at finite speed. And like I was saying before "naturally existing and living in, and manipulating a place outside of time would be either infinite or immeasurable speed" even The Everlasting stated above, that you have to exist in a timeless place to be infinite speed. This shows that Demigra being in the CoT would qualify according to The Everlasting.

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    • I also agree with Ryu. So far, he's brought up the best argument and faced no real debunk tbh.

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    • Ryu and Blue make sense.

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    • Dark also agrees with blue so that's good

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    • While I am neutral, the argument presented by Blue and Ryu makes a lot of sense, and definitely is substantial. However, I believe more important figured in Vsbattles should be the final judge... As obviously I am not 100% accurate on this topic.

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    • "Naturally living in" as in "being born in". Being confined in a timeless space isnt anything "natural". Demigra unless was born in the CoT isnt infinite.

      @Ryu Dark Area digimon are born from a timeless void. Immesurable digimon trascend completely time in various ways.

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    • Many people are for immeasurable speed and some are in the middle but think it makes sense, including staff so that's good as well

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    • PaChi2 wrote:
      "Naturally living in" as in "being born in". Being confined in a timeless space isnt anything "natural". Demigra unless was born in the CoT isnt infinite.

      @Ryu Dark Area digimon are born from a timeless void. Immesurable digimon trascend completely time in various ways.

      This.

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    • living in it for 75 million years is enough evidence for the fact it is consistent that he can act and thrive in there.  The feat itself is knwon to be infinite/immessurable even if only done once, the only reason it is sometimes not used here is since it could be considered inconsistent if it only happened for a brief period and never again, but he is in there for 75 million years, and can even effect things in the normal time streams from there all game.  So he consistently can thrive in such an enviroment and extend his influence in that state to normal time streams to.

      Also, again, the masters can literally travel from toki toki city, by flight to your location in time and space in an alternate timeline to assist you,a dn then leave whent ehy want if they are being beaten, so taht alone is anohter immesurable speed feat.

      Then the statements made only further substantiate there status as beyond linear time.

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    • The feat isn't either infinite nor immeasurable.

      And not really, they have means of traversing through time or timelines. Neither which is Immeasurable just special abilities.

      The statements are, once again, taken out of context and don't mean what you think they mean.

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    • Honestly, I don't think that simply living in a timeless space should be considered a speed feat at all, even if it was for an extended period of time. A location without time is just a property of the dimension itself. A character shouldn't automatically scale to the properties of an area just because their inside it.

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    • I'll say a few things for now.

      First, being outisde the flow of time in the Multiverse definitely isn't immeasurable. That's basically being out of sync with time and doesn't imply you are beyond ALL of time when simply not in tune with a specific time flow. It's similar to how Alien X was downgraded based on a false conception of the FoC being outside time when it was just out of sync with it. This sounds no different.

      Second, regarding the 75 million year stuff, wouldn't living forever outside it afterwards kinda prove immeasurable speed is an outlier? It'd be different if it was the other way around. That if Demigra stil lived in the CoT for every passing moment, and was only bound by linear time when going outside it, living in the void would contradict any small instance of being bound by time since he'd live in a void longer than even going outside it. But this isnt happening here. Even if its 75 million years, its still a limited instance of living there. Demigra no longer lives there right? So its the complete opposite happening. He's living outside the void longer than living inside it, so the instances of him being bound by time are against him not being bound by it. And like Matt and Pachi said, Demigra wasnt naturally born there in the CoT, he only lived, or was "confined" there. That isnt enough to be even granted infinite.

      And as for others traveling to other timelines, whats stopping that from easily just being considered a form of time travel?

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    • Problem is, why would he go back? He wants omniversal domination over the DB Continuities, why would he stay in a place where his powers are limited to only a sliver via a crack?

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    • If that is the case, with the CoT weaking his powers to that much of an extent, that's even more of a reason on why he isn't immeasurable or infinite. Or even being naturally born there. You don't get weakened from a place your supposed to naturally be a part of yes?

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    • I just see a few misconceptions I would like to clear up.

      1. The Crack of Time did not weaken Demigra's power but only limited amount of his power that could escape.

      2. In DB Heroes, Demigra built a castle in the Crack of time and now lives there as he can freely escape any time he wants. And like I said above, Heroes is a direct continuation of Xenoverse so he does not live outside of the CoT for the rest of his life.

      3. He lived in the CoT longer than he lived outside it. (at least afterwards)

      4. In DBH, he freely chooses to live in the CoT and is no longer confined there.

      5. Existing in a timeless void, according to the speed page, is a speed feat but can be classified as an outlier/inconsistency.

      6. People like Beerus are stated to be older than Time (at least in Xenoverse) and Demigra is older than him.

      Most people on the issue are neutral towards it (including Azzy) so that leads me to believe the feats aren't as bad as people are making it out to be.

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    • 1. Even so, it still weakened him. Your not supposed to be getting any sudden backlash or negative feedback from a place that should be natural for you to coexist there.

      2. Fair enough. But even so, even if he lives there currently, living there alone and naturally being born there and living there are 2 different things.

      Point 3 is covered

      Same as 4

      5. It's not inconsistent or outlier if the character in question was naturally born from said void.

      6. Is that true or considered hyperbole?

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    • https://plus.google.com/113806516725407052781/posts/HM1sZtZxWPT

      He considers majins who existed since the beginning of time as babies and implies hes been around longer

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    • Beerus isn't older than time.

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    • Refer to the scan above

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    • Being put there (which in itself implies that someone else put him there) against his will kinda makes infinite very questionable. Btw, it would at best be infinite.

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    • But in DBH he chooses to live there. Chronoa put him there, the Supreme Kai of time. Plus, in DBH, I am pretty sure there is a quote stating Demigra is around (if not older) than TokiToki (the bird that puts time into motion). I think people seem to forget that this is also a DBH speed thread as well.

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    • Ever heard of poetic language? "Existed since the dawn of time" in this context just means that the Majins are really frigging old.

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    • Im neutral on this. 

      Im surprised nobody has argued over the whole CoT thing. i mean even though its been stated to be timeless, some people still don't believe it (not saying its anybody here)

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    • I mean, the whole thing with the CoT is that it is timeless.

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    • "Poetic langauge" what even? its written in their profiles that they are time immoral. Ever since time started ticking in Universe 7, it's even in the Kanzenshuu and stated by Toriyama http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/saikyo-jump-june-2014-issue-twel-buu-mysteries/

      And Beerus existed before hm. 

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    • @Matt Yes it is.  Not to be rude but just saying it isn't a speed feat is not actual proof that i'm wrong.  Demigra can consistently move and act in a place devoid of time for 75 million years and the majority of the game, and even extend his influence into the timelines while there.  He fits the definition for the requierments.

      Actually a few characters have used portals or teleportation in the past, but in this case all the masters can physically fly through time, across timelines and reach you of their own accord from conton city where they normally are, and are shown flying into the field, and flying out if beaten on their own speed.  None of which are pattrolers, most of which do not have teleportation or any of said hax, and many of which are even villains and completly opposition to the time pattrol sans you.  So assuming they have hax or help to do this, when nothing suggests they do, and they are not even part of time pattrol, and they are shown to fly in and out leaves burden of proof on you to prove they all have some sort of hax they are using to do this, and it is not actual speed like is implied by them flying there adn back with regular travel.

      Trancending time could be interprited as many things by itself, but in conjunction with the above feats it helps to substantiate that they are immesurable in speed, which is one interpritation if taken literally.

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    • +Beerus being older than Majins which Toriyama says and Kanzenshuu confirms existed since time started ticking. Thats undeniable

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    • "Was collapsing and consuming all of time, merging past, present and future into one single void, and could still move and perfectly function in such a state" Solaris gets infinite speed for this.

      Demigra was literally doing this in DBH. And before the argument comes "Solaris is temporal omnipresent", in DBH, fodder like the Dark Dragon are Temporal omnipresent. And the Dark Dragon was also destroying time.

      "Can move and function after erasing time"

      Again, Demigra, in DBH, does this daily. destroying Time is kinda what he does.


      Not trying to be rude but something seems off about very similar feats are interpreted very differently like how we call Demigra's feats outliers even though he performed them countless times.

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    • Demigra wasnt doing that according to his page. Aside from his other 2-B reasonings, He was destroying all the timelines in the multiverse so he could recreate his own.

      Solaris was collapsing his own yes, but the big difference here is he was fusing them into a void to move around in. Not remaking an entirely new one.

      That isnt the same thing.

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    • Funny thing is the place FW1 came from after he lost to demigra looks like a timeless void (IMO), pretty sure he survived because of the tokitoki blessing/gift thing which even the DB wiki believes. Demigra was gonna destroy all of time, and then from the timeless whatever create his own time.

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    • @Kukui He was destroying all timelines and causing them to overflow into eachother and merge together, it legit says "all sorts of possibilities are overflowing" when we see GT guys, DBS guys, game guys etc all coming together despite beign from diffrent timelines, hence all the timeline anomalies with his mere energy being present etc, kai of time was barely keeping it stable while they fought him, and Demigra was going to act after the destrustion of the multiverse and real world making his own new world from nothing in a void.  Fun fact, the last time he made a world (aside from his castle) was the demon realm, he was one of the ones who created it, and it has completly diffrent laws of physics from our own and is run more like magic according to daizenshuu.  So yes, same thing dealing with voids and distorted time fusing, actually more impressive since he is said to trancend the multivese and is goign to destroy the real world to.  Also his own castle is in a timeless void in heroes on purpose, he makes it in the crack of time.

      Anyhow going to sleep now, but will certainly look at this more tommorow.

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    • Strange how none of that is used as a justification for him on his page. Besides that, "overflowing" doesn't mean that they were fused into one.

      Plus, unlike Demigra, Solaris was literally consuming his timelines into one as well into a void. But then again, I'm not Sonic expert so someone else is going to have to explain more on why Solaris is infinite.

      Regardless, I am done with this for now.

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    • Well, Towa and Mira were planning on fusing two seperate dimensions (The demon realm and the mortal universe) into one so. 

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    • His page should be more detailed.  If I had acess to it I would flesh it out.  But that is what happens. 

      In this cae it does, since the timelines are spreadign into eachother, crossing events and characters, and creating time rifts, and the energy is spread through all the timelines and beyond, and they are all unstable.  Also he has all towas power and she can fuse the demon realm and universe together, so it stands to reason he has the exact saem power, but clearly at a much higher level.

      Demigra was gaining power from all the timelines he was warping and overflowing into eachother and would destroy them all, leaving a void, which he would then make his own world in his image after from the void.  So I'd say very similar, but Demigra's was higher scale due to it including the real world to which is trancendant to the multiverse.

      Same, goign to sleep, but will check back tommorow.

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    • Yeah his Heroes key still needs some fleshing out.

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    • Just going to Reemphasize the Beerus being older than time being confirmed by Kanzenshuu and Toriyama via the scan I posted above since with everything else it's going to end up ignored

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    • I am still uncertain what to make of this. It might be best if Azathoth makes an effort to evaluate it again.

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    • Older than time probably simply refers to being older than the main DB universe.

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    • Actually, the interview with Toriyama specifically states he is time immoral. I.e: existed since time started ticking. This is also in the Kanzenshuu http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/saikyo-jump-june-2014-issue-twel-buu-mysteries/ and Beerus implies that Buu to him, is a baby. He's speaking to the Majin race specifically (Who again existed ever since time began). Ryu in this thread undoubtly makes the most sense and so does Blue. Dark agrees, so does UMR and many others as well. Then there's Toki-Toki embodying time and Demigra absorbing him

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    • What do you think Matthew? Do you still disagree?

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    • Please have your own opinion as well judging off what has been said and shown.

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    • Well, I constantly have an extremely split focus between lots of different tasks, and am tired and overworked in general, so I recurrently have a hard time making up my mind about ambiguous issues.

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    • And I understand that, and I don't want to come of as rude, but relying on one's persons opinion when others, including staff have the opposite view serves as favortisim.

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    • Well, Azathoth tends to have a very good sense of judgement, and Matthew does have some good points. Given how disputed this issue is, I would prefer to check with them again before giving some form of clearance.

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    • In addition, this concerns immeasurable speed, which is a concept that I find confusing to start with.

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    • Azathoth is in the middle. Most of Matthews points have been refuted countless times by Ryu and Blue. But ok lmao. Dark also agrees with Blue who agrees with Ryu. Dark also has good judgement.

      I'm going to go now, but i'll be back to see how this progresses tomorrow

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    • I still disagree with everything.

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    • Yes, but the combination of being able to move in timeless voids and being able to freely travel through time seems to make this an uncertain case.

      In addition, you almost seem to be the only one who outright disagrees.

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    • I'm still waiting for Azathoth.

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    • @Therefir he already arrived and his stance (so far) is neutral.

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    • Time travel is just that = time travel. It doesn't guarantee immeasurable speed normally.


      And not at all, plenty of people disagree above. We wouldn't be about to create a rule had it been just me.

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    • After looking back, Immeasurable definitely doesn't apply. "Infinite" could probably be argued for, though the issue is no character this applies to is ever portrayed as infinitely "fast" next to a character with a quantifiable speed, nor beyond normal time's constraints once they actually enter a timeline.

      I don't have very much of an opinion beyond that, at this point.

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    • ^ Ryu said:

      I am not claiming they are equal to smt characters, but that you can't dismiss feats or statements that would make somebody infinite or immeasurable based on the viewers perspective of them fighting at finite speeds, which is what was being done as reasoning for ignoring there feats/statements. smt and digimon were just examples of verses that usually are shown in what we would see as the viewer in finite speed in combat, but in reality there few statements and feats dictate they are not actually bound by linear time.


      Im not sure if it answers your concerns, but just incase.

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    • We know what he said. His argument boils down to:

      1) Using statements that have already been analzyed and debunked

      2) Making false equivalence comparisons with SMT and Digimon.

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    • Well, if Azathoth disagrees, I suppose that this cannot be accepted then. My apologies.

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    • Should we still create a new regulation, or leave the issue open for new evidence?

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    • Kepekley23 wrote:
      "Do not attempt to upgrade the speed of Dragon Ball Heroes and Dragon Ball Xenoverse characters to infinite or immeasurable, as this has been discussed several times before, and has been deemed a misinterpretation of the actual events. The characters have been clearly affected by the flow of time before, and most feats suggesting such a speed are vague and can be interpreted as simple time travel."

      Yeah, I agree.

      We should make this regulation a thing, yes.

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    • That seems fine. What do the rest of the staff members here think?

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    • The regulation is ok.

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    • @Quantu

      http://vsbattles.wikia.com/wiki/Myotismon

      ^This guy is infinite. Lets check everyone who fought him and see if they scale to him in speed:

      Agumon (Taichi Yagami), Gabumon (Yamato Ishida), Patamon (Takeru Takaishi), Gatomon (Hikari Yagami), Palmon (Mimi Tachikawa), Gomamon (Jou Kido), Tentomon (Koushiro Izumi)

      At best Demigra is infinite and nobody who has fought him is.

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    • Wait... What ? So if Demigra gets upgraded, no one else scales to him ? That sounds... Weird on paper.

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    • That sounds really really weird.

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    • Im not familiar with DBX so if anyone absorbed him or fused with him or such, then whoever did that scales.

      But again, we are not giving DB any special treatment.

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    • Mira absorbed Tokitoki egg while Demigra Tokitoki himself.

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    • Well, Azathoth said that infinite speed could probably be argued for. What do the rest of you think?

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    • In that regard I could buy a possibly infinite speed rating for Demigra.

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    • I think that giving Infinite Speed for Demigra due to very shaky statements and then admitting it is an outlier and not giving it to anyone else just feels really dishonest, and an attempt to appease people more than anything.

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    • Okay.

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    • Infinite speed Demigra is the best we can get with the statements. And nobody scales to that.

      Still, I dont know about XV, so I wont argue it.

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    • Well the Future Warrior did have a battle in the Crack of Time against Demigra and is portrayed as comparable to him.

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    • Super Saiyan God Julian wrote: Well the Future Warrior did have a battle in the Crack of Time against Demigra and is portrayed as comparable to him.

      No. You like comparing dbz with digimon? Fighting in the dark area doesnt grant you infinite speed.

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    • But fighting in a void does in Sonic. Erazor Djinn has a singular void feat for less than 5 minutes and gets infinite speed. The only reason I am even arguing about infinite speed is because some franchises get it for void feats while others don't. I don't even care if it scales to the rest of the cast of DBX, I simply want equality for void feats and the such.

      @Pachi Sonic gets infinite speed for fighting beings that have moved in a void even though he has been almost always been portrayed as finite speed prior.

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    • I've never once compared DB with Digimon.

      Anyways I have no idea how this whole speed scaling thing works but giving someone a speed but not to those who fought said person doesn't make much sense for me (except outliers of course).

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    • Higher-End Super Sonic level characters are Infinite Speed not only because of that Bluetrekking, it's also mainly because Super Sonic restored the destroyed/devoured time and space at the end of Sonic and the Secret Rings, Generations and 06, they can also act and move after the latter completely collapsed.

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    • I dont know about Sonic, but whatever is done in other verses is of no concern here (same with using SMT or Digimon here as an arguement).

      At this point Im leaning towards that regulation.

      Im not following this any more.

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    • .... I will not read everything ..... can we summarize why DBX should have infinite speed?

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    • I don't know why Infinite speed is being denied. It was never quite debunked.

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    • DodoNova2 wrote: .... I will not read everything ..... can we summarize why DBX should have infinite speed?

      Stop being lazy.

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    • It might be necessary for some staff member to start a new thread with a summary of the arguments for and against infinite speed for us to get anywhere at this point.

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    • Well I suppose that's a better idea at this point.

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    • I agree, and I also think we should let a few important non-staff members comment on the thread.

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    • I am fine with letting sensible non-staff members commemt.

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    • Would i be considered "sensible" ? I understand if i am not... I do [ Ahem any previous Marvel threads i made or contributed to ] 

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