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  • Reppuzan
    Reppuzan closed this thread because:
    Baseless and brought up time and again.
    06:39, December 21, 2017

    As you can probably tell by my name, I'm a fan of Death Battle, and the latest one (Sephiroth vs Vergil) brought up something curious: Seph may NOT be SS level

    Yeah, Sephiroth's Nova isn't quite what it seems, as in he doesn't actually CAUSE it. Seph actually pulls his victims into an alternate world where the supernova happens naturally, and DB's reasoning is very sound: if Sephiroth could summon comets capable of destroying solar systems, why even need the Black Materia and Meteor?

    So, yeah, I really don't think Sephiroth is SS level since he really doesn't cause the supernova to happen

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    • He can hurt people who can survive supernova with his regular attacks

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    • Lack of AoE and he still harms the party who tank Supernova anyway.

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    • Surviving Supernova is almost certainly still a Tier 4 feat.

      Though if they don't tank the it at the epicenter it's likely below megaFoe range.

      If they do, then he may as well have caused it, anyway, as it doesn't affect scaling.

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    • If you calced someone surviving a supernova the result would be drastically lowered because tbey can only get hit with a very small part of the supernova, due to being human sized.

      If this feat is onscreen you could get some1 to calc it, or even a theoretical how much energy do u need to survive a supernova calc.

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    • @LAS

      This is true, though also why I used being at the epicenter as the one caveat (which I legitimately can't remember if they were).

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    • There is a calc already for them surviving this, the result landed them at the level they're at now

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    • Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot wrote: @LAS

      This is true, though also why I used being at the epicenter as the one caveat (which I legitimately can't remember if they were).

      Oh so you calced it yourself? Was this a onscreen feat or offscreen?

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    • Well, my two cents on the issue, hope it helps:

      There's also the japanese version of the Supernova where he creates an even larger explosion by himself. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZJu-30h_Sh0

      The blast takes place in a different dimension, just like summons, true. However, dragging people may be different from dragging the whole planet and the Black Materia may be needed to summon the Meteor on the FFVII particular planet. And from what I get, Sephy needs to destroy the planet to use it as a vessel to find his "promised land" and get the lifestream to control it, but if he just obliterated it that would make his objectives pointless (the Supernovas do pretty much erase the planets they hit as seen in the vids).

      EDIT: Here is the calculation:

      https://web.archive.org/web/20160506093744/http://www.narutoforums.com/xfa-blog-entry/final-fantasy-vii-feat-supernova-japanese-version.31203/

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    • @Aizen Its an on screen feat

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    • @Aizen

      Nah, I mean 3.1 megaFoe is the power of the entire Supernova, so 3.1 megaFoe durability would be granted if someone tanked the explosion at the origin point, as opposed to farther out. I forget where the party was located, at the time.

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    • The Japanese Version of the Supernova feat. The one that's canon and matters, involves the sun literally blowing up exponentaneously without any meteor hitting it, and the explosion is ridiculously fast and the calc wields like, 1GigaFoe. And it is the doing of Sephiroth. All Limit Breaks and Special Moves which aren't summons are the result of the characters' doing.

      Death Battle's argument isn't very good considering that Final Fantasy VII and Crisis Core are both full of feats above Planet level.

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    • @Matt

      The JP Supernova is the 3.1 megaFoe one we use. It's Chaos' more recent version, iirc.

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    • Figured I'd mention that I don't think I've ever seen us use surface area as an argument when dealing with characters surviving explosions or other attacks with large AoE.

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    • @Azzy

      Yeah.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZ7c0X4KgsQ&feature=youtu.be&t=2m30s

      There's no meteor there. Sephy causes the explosion by himself.

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    • Assuming that the explosion is as large as the orbit of Earth, the gang would only be exposed to a tiny fraction of the explosion's power.

      An explosion like that would have 2.83×10^23 meters in surface area, and even if you assumed that they take up 6 square meters in area (which they don't) that would end up with them anything an absolutely TINY fraction of the explosion.

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    • We don't even see where the party is in the JP version so it's impossible to quantify.

      What matters is that Sephiroth has the raw power to do it and the other characters can contend with Sephiroth, even if noticeably weaker safe for Cloud.

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    • However, that still doesn't disprove Sephy's AP, does it? He did create a SS destroying attack on his own.

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    • Ninjad you.

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    • Looks like the JP version is the feat's saving grace. The Meteor could be argued as chain reaction and they wouldn't tank the full blast of it expanding outward. That said if Seph just detonates the star outright that proves his power.

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    • D'OH!

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    • @Matt

      The party should actually be at the epicenter of the JP version, assuming the blast is coming from Sephiroth and they're within like ten feet of him.

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    • Assaltwaffle wrote:
      Looks like the JP version is the feat's saving grace. The Meteor could be argued as chain reaction and they wouldn't tank the full blast of it expanding outward. That said if Seph just detonates the star outright that proves his power.

      Yeah. The Ultimania Guidebook, which is canon, straight up says that Sephiroth causes a Supernova, and it is based on the Japanese version.

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    • The Everlasting wrote: Figured I'd mention that I don't think I've ever seen us use surface area as an argument when dealing with characters surviving explosions or other attacks with large AoE.

      Even if this is true (it's not, Kkapois used it before) that is not a argument.

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    • Also, the japanese Supernova is what was used here to determine Sephy's tier and scale the rest of the party, wasn't it?

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    • @LAS

      If it's never been a standard it kind of is.

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    • The Everlasting wrote: @LAS

      If it's never been a standard it kind of is.

      Taken straight from our Explosion Yield Calculations page.

      "Let's say an explosion occurs and a character endures the explosion. If that explosion doesn't occur close to the character the amount of energy that hits it will be significantly lower than the full energy of the explosion. To find the actual amount of the energy from the explosion that he/she tanks one first applies the inverse square law."

      If characters are far away from an explosion they don't get hit by the brunt of it, even more so if the explosion is on an interplanetary scale.

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    • @Tarta

      Yes. Both are canon, and surprisingly, the JP one has better purely destructive results.

      @Ever

      I think we do when the feat is in regards to tanking something.

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    • The Everlasting wrote: @LAS

      If it's never been a standard it kind of is.

      Lol no, it doesnt even need to be a standard as it is mathematically the ONLY way you can calc surviving something like this.

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    • So let me check: Apparently Sephiroth only summoned (or teleported the party to) a supernova, so the rating of the verse only depend of how much the party was separated from the supernova. So, there's no way to known the distance between them? Watching the most recent DB, the "wall of fire" was already pretty big when it reaches the party.

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    • Antoniofer wrote:
      So let me check: Apparently Sephiroth only summoned (or teleported the party to) a supernova, so the rating of the verse only depend of how much the party was separated from the supernova. So, there's no way to known the distance between them? Watching the most recent DB, the "wall of fire" was already pretty big when it reaches the party.

      We've been saying: there's also the japanese version of the Supernova where he creates the explosion on his own.

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    • Read the thread. That's not the feat we scale the characters from. We use the Japanese version, where there is no meteor nor expanding wall of fire where the characters are away from. And it actually wields like a thousand times more.

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    • @Antonio No, sephiroth caused the supernova under his own power

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    • Welp, if that is the case, then Sephiroth woukd have a key for that attack. But, if everyone else was severy injured after when they weren't close of the epicenter it will still change the durability/ST of everyone else, assuming that they weren't pretty close to the epicenter.

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    • @Ant

      Not really. Seph has the power to make and survive the explosion out of his own power. He uses this same power to fight them consistently. He his damaged by the opposing party, and they are damaged by him in return. It is completely fine scaling wise.

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    • Also, the japanese version is ambigous where the explosion begins https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZ7c0X4KgsQ&feature=youtu.be&t=2m30s

      nothing really indicates they are far away from him, the explosion could be right where Sephiroth is. In the american version it's likely the party is where Earth is located, which I guess is why the confusion begins.

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    • Basically

      Sephiroth presumably causes the JP Supernova directly through his own power, which is 3.1 megaFoe.

      Cloud scales directly to Seph.

      No one else in the party is as strong as Seph or Cloud, but are strong enough to fight Safer Sephiroth and not die.

      Seph and Cloud = 3.1 megaFoe

      Everyone else < 3.1 megaFoe, but not to a ridiculous degree.

      This is why the characters are where they are.

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    • It makes 0 sense for Sephiroth's strength to be orders of magnitude higher for one specific attack. The energy doesn't come from nowhere but himself.

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    • @Tarta

      In the English version the feat would need to be redone. Meteor could have chain-reacted the Sun to explode and they are far away and still take damage. Japanese version is what we're using, since he doesn't need a meteor and the explosions are absolutely huge and occur close to the team.

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    • This is just making me think about how I can't wait until TFS gets to the Safer Sephiroth fight.

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    • Wait until the Remake. Supernova gets rename "Big Bang Nova" and the cutscene shows Sephiroth blowing up a universe.

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    • @Assalt

      Yes, indeed. It's what I've been saying as well. I didn't express myself well, sorry =P

      What I was trying to say is that we can't assume the explosion, in the japanese version, began where the sun would be located because the american animation shows that (given they are different attack animations altogether and all). While not pinpointed due to the faraway shot, it could be right where Sephiroth is (and would make sense).

      @Matt: Given how overblow FF can be, oh yeah. And it will look awesome!

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    • Is there anything else to discuss here?

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    • Maybe we should see if the OP has any other questions.

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    • I took a look at the Japanese version of Nova, and not only is the epicenter unclear, it's also unclear if he really did it himself.

      He could've teleported the party to a world where the sun went supernova on it's own, WITHOUT aid from a comet. Stars explode on their own all the time

      This is the vid I watched, sorry for the quality: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IWcFUQ0THJ0

      EDIT: I also just read that the International version of FF7 uses the longer version of Nova, and the IV is exclusive to Japan. So it's possible that the original Nova was retconned in the IV

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    • I introduce you to the concept of Occam's Razor.

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    • @Jake

      He teleported to a star that was going supernova that just happened to have an iron core planet that looks like Venus and a gas giant that has Jupiter's iconic planet-sized red storm? I think that is quite a bit of a stretch, don't you?

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    • @Jake:

      Issue is, there are several issues with that idea: how can he guess where there will be a Supernova in the right moment? Seph doesn't have any sort of psychic power to scan the universe; why would he transport the party faraway from the explosion when he could put them right in it?; and the attack begins with a close up of him before showing the faraway explosion, there aren't any stars, just planets and space, you can see the explosion begins in a black area, not in a star. It actually comes as less likely to think the factors just happened to be there.

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    • @Assaltwaffle

      I probably didn't word it right. It's possible he teleported the party to an alternate version of our solar system at the precise moment the sun exploded. Hey, Seph has dimension warping powers, anything is possible

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    • @Jake

      Our Sun isn't going to Supernova. It isn't the kind of star that can do that. Also is it really more likely that Seph can peer into the future, find the exact moment that a scientifically impossible event will occur, and then go to that time, just to hit them with the blast?

      Is that really that much more believable than him just being SS level? Honestly being able to jump to any point in history or the future instantly would actually be stupid broken. Just bring someone to the Big Bang or the Big Rip/Heat Death/Other end of the universe. Enemy gone.

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    • Kinda what I said, Sephy doesn't have any sort of precognition or psychic abilities to observe the universe like that, much less alternate dimensions. He also doesn't have any dimension warping powers beyond dragging enemies for the Supernova itself, giving him the ability to pinpoint specific space time and travel or warp others there would be giving him an ability he doesn't have, wouldn't it?

      And as Assalt said, our Sun can't go Supernova (not enough mass), it will turn into a red giant.

      Also, as I said in my previous post, if you look closely at the video, you'll see that there aren't any stars when the explosion occurs, just some planets, it actually starts in empty space. Stars show up when the explosion is almost done.

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    • @TartaChocolate

      In order for anyone with dimension hopping powers to use them effectively, wouldn't they need to be able to "see" into alternate dimensions, so as not to accidentally warp into the sun's core, an active volcano, etc?

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    • @Jake

      Most people who can jump between universes just end up in the exact same location, or a random one. I can't think of many that pre-plan their destination, and Seph has not shown to be able to do this. The rationalization bridge has to keep getting longer for "Seph is not SS level" to work.

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    • @Jake:

      Not necessarily. It would be ideal, but characters have traveled dimensions without knowing where they end up. And there's a rather big difference between seeing where you'll be ending up right away and scanning the universe for this particular phenomena. It also clashes with his objectives in advent children where he outright says to Cloud he plans to use the planet as a vessel to search for a suitable one. Why would he need any of that if he could just search the universe and teleport there?

      And as I've insisted, in the video, there aren't any stars where the explosion occurs, just a black void.

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    • The only thing that needs to be adjusted is the calculation of the japanese attack, as it originated from earth not the sun, it's still megafoe 4-B regardless and the calc uses the whole surface area of jupiter rather than the cross sectional area which is the standard meaning the result is higher than what's initially estimated.

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    • @TartaChocolate

      Because that's not really Sephiroth's plan, but Jenova's. Jenova IS a parasite that feeds off of a planet's life energy, after all.. There is debate over whether Seph's actions were his own in FF7

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    • mere speculations on whether Sephiroth was the mastermind or not doesn’t change the fact that this feat is legit.

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    • @DB Fan

      You're making baseless assumptions to insert a possibility that isn't there.

      Sephiroth calculates the force required to set off the Supernova and does it.

      Even if his base form does this in Dissidia.

      Just stop, please.

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    • In addition, the fight takes place with the party ten feet in front of him. In both the International and Japanese versions there's no indication that either of them have moved from their position and Sephiroth is sitting in the middle of the epicenter.

      Even his Dissidia version of the move has him pose in front of the star as it detonates.

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    • Can this be closed now?

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    • Just want to say, I can't possibly be the only one who saw this coming.

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    • I think that we should close this, yes.

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