Didn't see said abilities listed on Joe's profile; and the 4th wall break thing sounds more like Popeye's ability to threaten the animator, or Bug Bunny becoming the animator. Which were decided to be removed from their profiles respectively due to being outlierish and/or wanked on Vs threads.
Viewtiful God Hand: Another one of his Hyper Combos. Joe activates Slow before charging his hands with energy, jabbing them into the opponent and scrambling them from the inside out before ripping his hands out forcefully, slowing down his target even after the effects of Slow have worn off.
Goku only has 6 votes (You, Medeus, Marco, Therefir, Akreious, and Quantu).
Glassman never made a vote.
And Joe is Genre Savvy due to his love of movies, TV, and comics, he'll recognize Goku as a skilled martial artist in a heartbeat and go full throttle on him. Not to mention the fact that Joe can call in backup from the Six Machine to catch Goku off guard to get in close range for a Viewtiful God Hand.
If Goku was previously able to predict Hit's movements and actively counter him (in an arc where he's MUCH WEAKER and arguably less experienced) whilst he's Time STOPPED, why would Time Slow suddenly be this end-all-of-be-all technique? Besides that, Goku has a huge lead in AP. I don't know what Viewtiful Joe's Possibly 3-A rating is, but current SSB Goku is so hilariously superior to the one that did the baseline Universal attack that it'd probably be, no it'd definitely be a stomp.
Okay so, Viewtiful Joe slows time and chains combos on Goku. Goku unleashes a full-body AoE orb blast thing (Ex. Saiyan Saga Vegeta blasting apart a mountain with an AoE). Viewtiful Joe also likes to get flashy, and if he tries to combo up on Goku whilst in normal state, he's getting obliterated. And Goku has his fair share of grapples so V-Dodge isn't helping Viewtiful Joe in that aspect.
Because Goku's movements are not restricted after breaking out of time stop. During Slow he's nearly a snail while fighting Joe. He might be able to predict what Joe will do next, but it'll do him no good if he can't move fast enough to make good on that.
Joe's 3-A rating comes from beating both King Blue and Jet Black, both of whom had enough power to control all of Movieland, a realm filled with countless stars, deep space, galaxies, and black holes. King Blue had the power to manipulate every aspect of Movieland to his will, but Joe still beat him. Jet Black was even more powerful.
I don't recall a time when he used those in the middle of a fight.
He used Solar Flare against Great Ape Vegeta (First thing that comes to mind) and uses Instant transmission several times against Beerus and Cell a few times.
Goku's not stupid. In Combat, he's probably one of the best there is. Ki is malleable and Goku has actually been very inventive on its use. He won't stay to trying to punch an enemy if he's slower than them (Or from his view, they're faster). The AoE surround-blast will be extremely helpful as even if you're faster than Goku, if Goku's surrounded by an explosion coming your way, you can't exactly hit Goku either.
Also, Yeah. Then Goku has the AP advantage due to being several several SEVERAL times superior than baseline Universe to Joe beating a being that can punk a being that controls all aspects of a Universe.
And since Joe is easily excitable and distractable, Goku could easily capitalize on that (Since Goku is willing to kill). And before you say that "Goku won't do that!", the only time he had no reason NOT to (against Freeza), he immediately went for it by using distraction ki blasts and even stealth attacks. Against Cell, he couldn't win against him. Cell was slightly stronger, but also had more abilities and any fatal damage dealt would only allow Cell to regen and get stronger. Against Majin Buu, he could've beat him if he straight rushed Buu but that'd ruin the creation of yet another powerful warrior (Gotenks). Goku has no reason not to capitalize and use these things to his advantage.
Edit: And before you say Goku spared Freeza (Tried to), Freeza was literally cut in half. He wouldn't have posed any threat at all even if Goku gave Freeza some energy. He gave Cell a sensu bean, which is the honourable thing to do (To the dismay of his friends) because despite the world being on the line, it still IS a tournament. Equal playing field and conditions should be a no brainer for a natural martial artist like Goku.
Yeah, Reppuzan does have some really good points, but I'll point out some things. Goku's resistance to time stop basically turns time stop into time deceleration; and even then, Goku's Ki sense and precognition are still great even when time is being slowed down; causing many to initially assume that he doesn't have resistance to time stop. But it's true, Viewtiful Joe is also quite smart combat wise, he may be aware of Goku's resistance, but that doesn't stop Joe from technically being faster.
And yeah, Joe technically has durability negation and temporary invulnerability, which should probably be added to his profile. But Goku does have the ability to block intangible attacks and possesses much higher AP; although, Joe could still get passed his durability.
So yeah, now that I think about it, I'm not sure who wins now, but I'll switch to inconclusive for the time being. Still, Joe has been noticeably downplayed in this thread, so the votes probably deserve a recount.
I meant as Reppuzan said, his hax abilities have been completely left out throughout the entire thread. No one said he was downplayed tier wise; and of course even base form Goku oneshots if he hits, but Joe has his way around it.
Then again, Goku does have a massive area of effect and range compared to Joe, and precognition to help him out. And both characters are extremely excellent martial artists despite them having childlike personalities. So I said I'm unsure, but this match up is good.
I still dont recall Joe ever having an answer to Goku doing a 360 blast from his body should he ever get overwhelmed. Unlike his current battles, his sheer AP would make Joe trying to simply plow through it like his current opponents can is extremely unlikely. Joe’s profile is a little iffy, does he have any answer to Goku kind of just... pulsing Joe away if Goku gets overwhelmed? Can he detect invisible Eye Blasts/Kiais? Even if Goku’s in-Character, he’s still trying to kill, and when backed in a corner he’s shown to use abilities he wouldn’t normally. And he’s never used solar flare since Saiyan saga because, although this might be headcanon, but every opponent after Vegeta were simply out of Goku’s league. Against freeza, he couldn’t really deal any lasting harm even if he did solar flare (Super Saiyan Goku didn’t need it since he was superior anyways), Cell already knows solar flare so that can easily be countered, SSJ3 Goku could’ve already defeated Majin Buu; Kid Buu would’ve most likely panicked and blew everything up and Super Buu is so hilariously above SSJ3 Goku it isn’t even fair.
About the "AP Advantage". Remember what I mentioned about Joe beating Captain Blue? Captain Blue's power was only enough to create one of the seven Rainbow Oscars that Jet Black used to power himself up after one-shotting Captain Blue. So no, the AP gap isn't nearly as wide as you think it is.
But when has Goku been shown to perform either technique in character? I'm seeing a lot of stuff get thrown out, yet none of these have happened in any recent episodes or in the heat of battle against someone as strong as Goku himself.
Joe > Jet Black (with the power of all seven Rainbow Oscars and the Black Film) >>>>>>>>> Jet Black >>>>>>>> Captain Blue (Who has total command over every aspect of Movieland, got one-shotted by Jet Black and turned into a Rainbow Oscar)
Yeah, that's pretty much calc stacking. SSJ isn't really proven to be stronger than Kaioken x20 anymore; although less energy consumption yes. Each form is stronger than the last, but to in unknown extent. However, even base form Goku is easily above baseline 3-A, but I'll point out one thing. Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken times 20 would at very least be 200x the baseline of 3-A.
Assuming SSB Goku was baseline during the battle with Hit, SSB Goku would be at least 10 times stronger currently. Given that Hit was superior to SSBKK x10 previously, and both characters got stronger, but SSB Goku is stronger during their rematch then SSBKK x10 was. And then he can still go Kaioken x20, and you get at least 200x. But yeah, it's impossible to determine exactly how much stronger Goku is than 3-A because even his base form is constantly growing stronger, and all of his transformations are stronger yet.
But yeah, Joe is also far above baseline 3-A making this very difficult to determine.
Goku SSB Kaiokenx20 >>> Goku SSB Kaiokenx10 >>> Goku SSB Kaioken >> SSB Goku (Current) >>>>> SSB Goku (Goku Black Arc) >>> SSB Goku (RoF) >>> Beyond God Goku (introduction) > Super Saiyan God Goku (baseline). This is as simple of scaling I can get. Three >>> refers to a stomp. Reppu, that’s fine and all, but Goku Stomps someone who Stomps someone who Stomps (this could go on for virtually all arcs of Goku from ToP to BoG) who stomps U6 Goku who Stomps a baseline Universal. Goku is simply so far ahead of baseline right now that even if Joe is somewhere in the thousands of universal, Goku still surpasses that with a wide margin. Goku simply has significantly more “superior to this person who Stomps this person who Stomps baseline universal” to scale with.
I’m not multiplying. Where did you get that. Current SSB Goku simply Stomps SSB Goku in the Goku Black Arc, who Stomps Goku in U6 who then Stomps SSB Goku in RoF who THEN Stomps baseline (SSJGod Goku). None of that are multipliers, it’s just Goku’s insane growth. You can challenge me on that.
I can't really tell who's superior in terms of AP. I think the safest bet would be Goku, granted the nature of DBS. But the two are comparable without a doubt.
Though honestly, I can't see Goku avoiding getting his insides scrambled. That 360 omnidirection wave that he has, is not something that he starts with, nor spams. Half the time, it's not even a ki wave, but just him exerting his power to blow everything away. Joe is fully capable of spamming his time slow. With time reduced by that much, there's not much Goku can truly do. Since his entire moveset relies on movement of the body for the most part, having his body incredibly slowed down means everything else is slowed down, including his cognitive abilities. Slowing down time is not just slowing down the body, but a slowing of everything, including the mind, hence why Joe can attack enemies before they can react. Partially because the time slow, as is the nature of time slow in general, also slows the ability to think. Goku's precognition wouldn't even be a factor.
Goku seems to have a range and AP advantage, but Joe's hax is far beyond what Goku has seen in terms of time manipulation, which has always involved some form of time stop. Joe's durability negation allows him to more than make up for any difference in AP.
One last point on the omindirectional blast though. With time slowed, the impact force on Joe is far less due to the practically null acceleration. Joe could feasibly just walk through it, or easily punch a way through if necessary.
If you're thinking is impaired then yes, that makes it far more difficult, if not impossible to predict. Let's say it takes Goku one second to predict, and time is reduced to an eighth of it's speed, Goku now takes four times as long to predict Joe's movements. Meaing 8 entire seconds. Obviously, this is low balling both Goku's reaction speed and Joe's time dilation. But I think that example should suffice to explain how large a detriment it is.
Compared to having to predict someone’s movements when you literally froze for a full 0.5 seconds (in terms of MFTL+ characters, that’s huge). Goku also notably shoots much more Ki Blasts in the ToP so that’s one thing to keep in mind. Edit: and force doesn’t suddenly disappear just because time slows down. That’s not how it works. If I slowed time irl down to where I can casually stroll through a battlefield, but I punch a bullet, that bullet is probably gonna tear me a new one.
You still can't seem to grasp the fact that being able to predict someone's movements doesn't mean jack if you're moving so slowly that any response is practically pointless since Joe can prance circles around Goku while punching him in the face to refill his VFX power.
Speed is equalized, so I'm a bit confused on why speed is a discussion. Since they both have the same reaction speed in this fight, how fast they are is a nonfactor. The time dilation will be a constant factor due to speed being equalized.
You didn't really address my point about his precognition being a non factor during time slow. He won't even be able to properly perceive Joe's movements. The reason it worked on Hit is because they were comparable in speed. During a time slow, Joe is at least tens of times faster, being kind of course as the exact time dilation is unknown (it could likely be caled though. That sounds interesting).
Perhaps the force may not disappear. But, with there being severely less acceleration behind said attack (F=MA), it stands to reason that this is at least a possibility. Nonetheless, Joe can still punch his way through the key blast to get to Goku. But none of what you have said addresses how Goku gets around Joe's spamming of time slow, and ripping out Goku's insides.
Goku places mine field for a bonus. Also wouldn't speed equalized only equalize blue, not for if goku kaioken'd himself 20x stronger and faster?
I don't know how speed equalize works when characters can blatantly increase themselves further. And I'm not fully sold on joe's time slow removing precognition and it could backfire since it increases damage he takes making things even more lethal for him.
So apparently Goku has mines now. And they’re very fast in deployment and numerous as hell as Goku spread them an entire path and caused explosions that went above hills and large obstacles. So that’s a thing.
I don't think you guys are really taking into account how potent Joe's time slow is. None of you have discussed how Goku is able to do anything given that Joe will likely start off with slow. None of you have discussed how literally everything Goku does will be slowed down to the point where, from Joe's point of view, he'll be practically frozen in time, where Joe can rip out his insides. Goku wouldn't even be able to put the mines out because he'd be too slow. And Goku, as shown through the tournament, tends to only really use his head against stronger opponents. Not that Goku is stupid when it comes to fighting. No, the man is fantastic. But he didn't even take having his own universe potentially erased seriously, and only really started fighting seriously once Jiren started destroying him. This doesn't add much to the argument, just something interesting to point out. He rarely starts off with his best tactics first. (Destructo-Disk, mines, solar flare, kaioken, etc.) Instead, opting for hand to hand, or a ki blast. Joe goes for slow the most. Thusly, when the match starts, Goku would likely charge in, and time would slow to the point where Goku is almost frozen. And the Joe can proceed to pull out his insides. Goku does not possess a counter to this. And seeing as how Joe's time slow affects time and not speed directly, it is permitted in a speed equalized match. Just to clarify. It's no different from anyone else like Sonic or Dante, slowing down time.
Unless I’m watching the wrong video, his time slow is NOWHERE NEAR as potent as you make it to be. Goku WONT be slowed down to basically frozen and the enemies in the games itself isn’t helpless to the Slow ability.
His time slow is pretty potent. Perhaps I'm overselling it a bit. Sure. But Goku will be no different from an enemy in the game. It's not hard for Joe to rip out his insides when the difference in speed is that great. That point still hasn't been addressed.
Literally the only argument for Goku NOT being able to defend himself via AoE surround blast is “Time is slowed so the attack MUST be weaker!” Which makes no logical sense since energy doesn’t suddenly evaporate like that. And Goku’s mines went unnoticed by Jiren until he triggered them, so Goku could easily set up traps. Even IF Goku can’t do all of the above, a burst of Aura has frequently been shown to have a knockback effect even on enemies equal to the fighter. And Viewtiful Joe’s Time Slow (from the YouTube videos I’ve seen) has to be used in conjunction with a Combo/Attack so Goku still has opportunities to counterattack. And no, in character, Viewtiful Joe never 1-shots anyone or anything even against mook enemies (most attacks are flashy combos instead of straight Hax).
Firstly, that point was literally already addressed before. I admitted that I was likely wrong, though the decreased acceleration could potentially remove the force behind the attack. However, since I wasn't sure, I dropped the point and said that, instead, since they have comparable AP, Joe could punch his way through the blast. Or perhaps even combine his zoom in along with his slow to be able to brave through it. The AoE attack isn't always effective enough to blow back those with comparable AP. Please reference above.
Secondly, it was never stated that Jiren didn't see the traps. They're literally small orbs that glow (kinda hard to miss from a practical standpoint). Jiren was strong enough to not be affected by them in the slightest. It is currently unknown whether or not he saw them and chose to ignore them, or didn't see them.
Viewtiful Joe's slow can be used at any time as long as he has his gauge, along with any of his other VFX powers. He can walk in slow motion if he so chooses. And actually some puzzles require this, as well as jumping in slow motion and the like.
Most enemies are two or three shot by Joe in slow, eliminating the need for such hax. But SBA has them willing to kill, meaning that Joe will go for the kill, which involves scrambling his insides.
I don't see how. Hit's attack that strikes internally one shot him. Joe's is even more lethal than that. Also, Vegito isn't Goku. If you have a scan of Goku resisting such, I would appreciate it. However, unless it's on the same level as Joe, I don't think it will be enough.
Perhaps. But, once again, Goku =/= Hit nor Vegito. It has never been stated that Goku possesses all of Vegito's traits. Nor has it even been heavily implied (Neither Goku nor Vegeta even use Vegito's signature sword beam). That argument doesn't seem to really fit here. That aside, I'm still confused on how one has resistance to having their insides scrambled. However, I'm farily certain that Joe could overcome such resistance, even if Goku did have such. Resistance =/= Immunity.
Hit won due to his hax beating out Joe's, not beecause of a significant AP advantage.
But, once again, they have comparable AP. Such a thing is not something that is typically shown. And, if it does protect organs, then we can easily ask why Goku died from Hit's attack which passed through him and caused serious internal damage. Joe's attack isn't really that much different. It's simply close range, but the scrambling effect makes the internal damage far greater as it's more spread out as opposed to striking a single point. Either way, Goku has demonstrated his ability to die from attacks that hit internally. Even Jiren, someone far stronger than Goku, was stopped in his tracks by someone far weaker than him physically, that being Hit, because of an attack that struck him internally. The Ki protection of organs simply wouldn't be enough.
I'd also like to see a scan of ki protecting organs, please. That's a new concept to me.
I'm not sure. While some people would probably go and say "Well arguments for Goku has been debunked so those votes don't count!", but if a scenario is shown and the majority agree with that but others still disagree, what do we do?
Yeah, that's what I was asking about. I'm not really sure what to do here. That's why I was simply asking about the whole, agree to disagree thing.
There's also quite a few who haven't said anything in response to the points brought up by those whom have voted for Joe. But I guess, since nothing has really been debunked, except for maybe the large AP gap, it's not as though those votes aren't still valid.