Regarding Goku's speed, shouldn't it say "Likely Massively FTL+, powerscaling from Beerus"?
I mean yeah, we don't know FOR SURE how fast he is, but he's probably MFTL. If Beerus is MFTL and fought him with even 1% of his strength, that would still make Goku MFTL, wouldn't it? I don't see why it's necessary to say "Unknown" when it's pretty obvious that he has to be MFTL.
Im pretty sure that they used earlier and weaker variations of Goku for the fight, so no I dont think they should.
- All of his victories appeared to be stomps, even Sephiroth, so I had to remove them. Antvasima (talk) 09:45, January 27, 2016 (UTC)
- There's a small error in his Piccolo Jr. Saga Tier (or 23rd Budokai Saga, if you want to call it like that), he should be at least High 6-C (the same as Piccolo). Alexcar3000 (talk) 14:08, January 28, 2016 (UTC)
- Hmm. From what are they scaled? It might be that somebody changed Piccolo's profile, since it was not locked. Antvasima (talk) 14:41, January 28, 2016 (UTC)
- Piccolo's attack razed Papaya Island, which is a big island (in the Earth map, it looks more like country sized, but the map it's from the Daizenshuu 4, which is not accepted iirc). Alexcar3000 (talk) 14:57, January 28, 2016 (UTC)
- Well...it maybe even bigger than that because if that map is the whole Earth, then Papaya Island should be way bigger than a country, and the Daizenshuu 4 stated that is more like a small continent in size, but then again, I remember that the Daizenshuus are not being accepted here...or are they? Alexcar3000 (talk) 15:07, January 28, 2016 (UTC)
Sorry to bother but, there are some techniques on his list that belong exclusively to GT/Movies Goku: Dragon Fist, Super Dragon Fist and Sword Breaker... also his speed for Kaioken (Saiyan saga) has Relativistic in normal letters, it should be in bold. Alexcar3000 (talk) 03:21, February 15, 2016 (UTC)
Goku's SSJ form descriptions are outdated, it does not include SSJB and it says SSJG is at least a 10x boost, could this be fixed?
Also how does this pic look for SSJ2 Goku?
- I have modified the description. Also, that image is probably fine, but we need a render of it, before we insert it into the page. Antvasima (talk) 18:00, March 15, 2016 (UTC)
New pics for Goku?
Here is a rendered picture for Super Saiya-Jin 2
And I was thinking, since Goku is back to using Super Saiya-Jin, we should use his new design
Nah, I'm pretty sure the current SSJ pic is more notable
Don't get me wrong, the pics are great, but by notable I mean more known, as in between SSJ (Frieza Saga) and SSJ (Universe 6 Saga) I would prefer the Frieza Saga pic when representing Goku.
- I have replaced the SS2 picture, but agree with SomebodyData that the Frieza saga image seems more appropriate. Antvasima (talk) 06:34, March 16, 2016 (UTC)
Can someone add the fact that it was Z Goku that lost to Sentry so that confusion is avoided?
and i was wondering if it was possible for someone to add them?
I've found better images for SJ2 Goku and SSJB Goku here
and i was wondering if it was possible for someone to add them?Sora'sOther (talk) 15:35, March 27, 2016 (UTC) While the SSJB image is good, we should keep our current SSJ2 image as it shows the lightning
Can we change "SSGSS" to SSB. The SSGSS name is finally retconned in the new episode
Also, could there be a gallery with these things?
Hi, um. I see I can't edit the page. I just wanted to point out that the Key says "Saiyan Saga | Frieza Saga | Cell Saga | Buu Saga | Battle of Gods Saga | Battle Of Gods Saga |Universe 6 Saga", and as you can tell, "Battle of Gods Saga" is said twice, instead of Ressurection of F. Okay, thanks. Zombie812 (talk) 18:49, April 17, 2016 (UTC)
SSJ Strength Multiplier
I understand that we can't use the SSJ multipliers for speed, but wasn't strength mentioned several times to be multiplied by the SSJ forms? If so, then why was the Lifting Strength rating removed?
Somebody please remove Dark Schneider from inconclusive list, it's already removed from Schneider's profile. DS would stomp Goku and DBS with upgraded stats. Faisal Shourov (talk) 00:01, April 23, 2016 (UTC)
"Due to considerable contradictions, we do not consider Dragon Ball Kai etc.." I think you mean GT, because Kai is just a remaster of Z with the filler cut out, sticking to the original manga. Pesa123456789 (talk) 12:42, May 9, 2016 (UTC)
As far as I remember, there were contradictions with Super concerning Frieza in hell, the Buu galaxy feat contradicted the manga, and similar. Faisal Shourov could explain it better, but he just left the wiki. I can check if I can find his posts to me concerning the matter. Antvasima (talk) 12:50, May 9, 2016 (UTC)
That is correct, Ant. The primary issue from what I can recall is that they still have scenes of Frieza in Hell that greatly contradict how it appears in Super, and as a result, we can't use it. The Everlasting (talk) 12:52, May 9, 2016 (UTC)
Here is what Faisal said:
"I dont know if you have watched DBS, but Frieza was sent to flower garden hell right after being killed by future trunks. Frieza's hell scene in DB Kai is the same as DBZ, a filler scene. Frieza was in his personal canon hell all the time.
It's said DBS is sequel to DB Kai, but DBS has inconsistency with Kai. And toriyama said DBS is direct continuation to the manga, not DB Kai.
In DBS, frieza was put into "Earth's Hell" immediately after getting cut by Future Trunks, and describes it as horrible experience (with fairies singing and dancing everyday)
Filler in DB Kai Goku's adventures with Pikkon They extended Gohan's adventures as the Great Saiyaman Somewhat changed Vegeta's fight with Fat Buu, but that's mainly just the transfer of fighting scenes from manga to anime. Showed Base Gotenks vs Fat Buu instead of him coming back 3 seconds later with a broken face Created a fight for Goku and Vegeta against Buuhan, surprisingly not immediately dying. Goku and Vegeta's adventures inside Buu's body, including fighting copies of their friends, and surprisingly not immediately dying. Extended Kaioshin's flashback of Kid Buu
It's not overwhelming but Kai has decent amount of fillers. And the hell scene is a MAJOR inconsistency with DBS, far bigger than any consistency.
For example, in Kai ep 54, Frieza says after seeing Goku and Buu fight "I hate him, shatter my dream of ruling the universe, will you?" This is exactly the opposite in DBS in episode 20 where Frieza says he will grow stronger than Goku in 4 months, even after hearing Goku beat Majin Buu. Kai Frieza and DBS frieza are different in potential and backstory. This is a massive inconsistency.
Had Kai been canon to DBS, toriyama wouldn't have changed Hell and Frieza's potential and backstory. The Buu filler might seem convenient power scaling wise, but story wise it screws up continuity.
The argument from scaling from Kai was: 'DBS shows scene from kai so Kai must be canon'. That's not actually true, only the scenes that has been shown in DBS have been retconned to make canon. However it doesn't mean the whole thing is canon itself. Frieza busting Planet Vegeta doesn't make DBZ canon, so why would it for Kai? And there's no official word that kai IS canon, nor DBS is continuation to it. In fact, apart from minor changes, Toriyama himself doesn't take any fillers from Z/Kai into account for the main story of DBS.
Other inconsistency with DBS and DB Kai. Buu saga base goku could stomp buu saga SSJ2 Gohan. Going off this, Goku would be something like 60000x stronger than Super perfect cell based on our AP chart. But SSJ3 is 400x Base, so to get Goku's base, divide his power by 400 and with that he's still more powerful than cell or gohan. However Beerus said in DBS that base Goku is weaker than Frieza. So it's very inconsistent."
None of this changes the fact that the baseline is that DB Kai is based on the manga, which is canon. It's DBGT that has nothing to do with Toriyama or the manga, so is not canon. If you're not going to mention Kai, then it's necessary to amend the original statement to say "Z or Kai", since they're one of the same thing. Pesa123456789 (talk) 20:54, May 9, 2016 (UTC)
Based on is not the same as identical to. There are differences with the manga, such as Buu destroying a galaxy, and with the new official canon continuation Dragon Ball Super, such as Frieza's time in hell.
New SS2 Picture
I found a good pic for SSJ2 Goku
You have a picture of SSB Goku with the regular Kaio-ken, but shouldn't you have one of him with Kaio-ken x10? He does look different when using SSB KKx10 than when he's using the lower levels after all. So I recommend adding a pic of him using SSB KKx10 .--Neffyarious (talk) 02:56, May 12, 2016 (UTC)
SSBKKx10 looks different than regular SSBKK; with his skin turning pink and his hair becoming almost white in color. I'm afraid I'm no good at editing images though, sorry.--Neffyarious (talk) 07:34, May 12, 2016 (UTC)
Point. Hmm. Then we can't use the image since it's too large as what Ant pointed out. Basically there's a certain size limit that wikia's won't allow to implement here. Sorry. CrossverseCrisis (talk) 07:38, May 12, 2016 (UTC)
Okay, i've added. Though i took out the first SSB KK given that it might have been repetitive to have TWO pictures of Goku going SSB KK. I'll let Ant or the others say what they think on this, however. CrossverseCrisis (talk) 07:48, May 12, 2016 (UTC)
Goku's Tier (Saiyan Saga)
Hmm. Kaen brought up a good point about Goku's tier during in a VS thread. Apparently he pointed out that Goku is Planet level only when using KKx4. So shouldn't we put a tier for Goku when he doesn't have KKx4? It's known that Goku beat Nappa (albeit the guy was worn down but it probably wasn't that much of an issue), so wouldn't Saiyan Saga Goku be "At least Small Planet level+, Planet level with Kaiokenx4" or something? CrossverseCrisis (talk) 20:26, May 13, 2016 (UTC)
- Oh wait, that wasn't the whole thing. This is what he said in the VS Thread:
- "Goku Is Planet level... with KKx4
- Base Goku is at least Small Planet level+, likely Planet level". CrossverseCrisis (talk) 04:24, May 14, 2016 (UTC)
- Well, you could create a content revision thread, if you want more input. Antvasima (talk) 06:04, May 14, 2016 (UTC)
- Fair enough. I will do so. CrossverseCrisis (talk) 06:06, May 14, 2016 (UTC)
Should Flash vs Goku really be something that is listed on their profiles? It seems like a pretty massive stomp. Especially since this was bloodlusted Wally. What could Goku possibly do to him? Goku may have vastly superior AP and dura, but that really means nothing within this match.
Flash can phase Goku's organs out, dump the speed force on him or simply go back in time and kill him as a baby. These are all durability negating techniques and techniques that a bloodlusted Wally would be willing to use. So Goku tanking Flash's hits is out of the question.
Goku also lacks the speed to ever land any attack on Flash. So Flash getting one shot is also out of the question. But even if he wasn't able to effortlessly dodge anything Goku has (which he is) he could just steal Goku's speed and turn him into a frozen statue.
Lastly Flash has recently been upgraded to have Immeasurable speed with Time Travel. Making him infinitely faster than Goku. Not just infinitely faster than him but infinitely faster than his teleportation as well. This alone should constitute a removal via speedstomp. Let alone everything else I listed.
Saiyan Saga Goku vs Link
I was wondering if someone could change Goku's current quote ("Power comes from a need not a desire. You have to create that need.") to his original "I am" quote ("I'm the Saiyan who came all the way from Earth for the sole purpose of beating you. I am the warrior you've heard of in legends, pure of heart and awakened by fury, that's what I am. I AM THE SUPER SAIYAN, SON GOKU!"). It's his defining quote. ExoSaiyan9000 (talk) 07:05, September 25, 2016 (UTC)
I agree I don't like that quote much and like the current one. But how about his other iconic quote?
"I am the hope of the universe. I am the answer to all living things that cry out for peace. I am protector of the innocent. I am the light in the darkness. I am truth. Ally to good! Nightmare to you!" Ryukama (talk) 8:59, September 25, 2016 (UTC)
Hello. As a long time fan of DB fan and as someone who keeps tabs on basically every power-related notion in Super since the very beginning, I personally feel your Super's scaling is slightly; while I can get behind I think everything stated here related to DB and/or DBZ, I feel like the logical reasoning behind Super, in general, doesn't jibe that well. I'll start with SSG Goku's "universe-destroying feat". An argument could be made it is just through chain-reaction while fighting Beerus, that the destruction in an unspecified amount of time, and so far DBS hasn't really presented anything remotely on that scale afterwards (I understand ki control, but I find many other stuff labeled as outliers comparatevily easier to justify).
It really doesn't look like a foreign concept compared to, say, what would happen with the Minus Energy in DBGT, the implication in GT being it would've eventually destroyed the universe. Or even Boo-Gohan's dimensional which would've also made the universe collapse (both of which are just extension of Boo's and Omega's their own power, while for SSG Goku is debatable); yet I'd be inclined to believe Goku's feats are better.
I also don't think it much sense to me to keep SSB Vegito and Goku/ Jiren in different tiers, since everyone is implied to be in the same ballpark of a God of Destruction. Generally speaking, on the grounds that the difference between a galaxy and many galaxies is - like rightfully reported here - literally an unspeakable amount of order of magnitudes (https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-average-distance-between-galaxies). And obviously it’s normally impossibile to fathom the destruction of multiple universes unless similar writing/narrative techniques are implemented. I think some more down-to-earth ratings for the heavy hitters in Super, or maybe GT, could be:
- Grand Priest, Angels, Zamas' evil essence: I admit I am a little unsure on the tiering system here. Some part of 2-C sounds pretty fair, especially for the creepy Zamas, but reading the definition of 3-A, maybe a "High 3-A" would be more faithful. I say this because to my understanding "high 3-A" seems to include Universal-related time manipulation as long as it doesn't affect a relatively consistent part of a timeline. I suppose that maybe everything is to give a sense of distance between all the forms Goku and the Angels.
- Gods of Destruction: My guess would be "3-B, likely 3-A/ low 2-C with Hakai for reasoning similar to what was stated above (erasing non-living things sounds pretty conceptual-ish, and apparently works across different timelines; Champa's and Beerus' destruction isn't directly implied to destroy the Universe or multiple Universes in one fell swoop either and all you can see is interplanetary destruction)" seems more fair.
- Jiren, SSB Vegito, UI Goku, Merged Zamas: Similarly, "3-B, potentially higher"; for Jiren and Goku. This does look pretty easy, namely because the two are equal to the Gods of Destruction.
- Super's Goku: "3-C, potentially higher" definitely looks like the least debatable definition.
Again, on the grounds that the distance between galaxy is usually several billions of light years - which, again, is relatively hard to render in fiction unless drastic changes in the POV are implemented - and getting a grasp on the mileage behind many ratings, I feel like Super as well would probably need clear unambiguous statements (i.e. narration said one character alone can destroy many galaxies) or clear unambiguous feats based on this or that character’s power alone.
Also, I see a lot of talk on Jiren's feat from last week. I understand I'm in the minority here, but am I the only one who thinks this is... a little off? I mean, okay, it was supposed to impress the reader the World of Void is literally described "no space and no time"; assuming Jiren's did shook all the space available (and that it wasn't just a hyperbole, coming from a character in the show) it would be the space created by the Grand Priest, which could easily be just the arena. I mean, if we want to get technical, even assuming Jiren shook everything it would be "the arena/ whatever the Grand Priest created" and a "big amount of nothing". I also think getting out of Hit's could basically have to do with bruteforcing (much like SSB Goku did when stacking his power with Kaioken) a powerful technique; again, while I think the Hakaishin could easily belong to a "low 2-C" because of the implication that their specific powers could affect timelines. Jiren's strength could more easily fall in a bruteforcing type which simply bypasses Hit's time-related techniques; this, of course, assuming the fact that he isn't literally "non-bound" by time in general, or existing outside of the normal flow of time.
Hope I'm not stirring the waters too much. I appreciate this site and I'd like some feedback (and I honestly don't really like debating about Dragon Ball, given how overheated discussions tend to get). Since the other DB-related pages look pretty interesting and otherwise cohesive I felt like sharing my two cents. Cheers.
EDIT: Nevermind. I think I got most of your reasoning, starting from the accepted sources on the subject and some guessestimation on your interpretations. Keep up the good work.