Hello there, I’m pretty new to this site. I was wondering if you could answer a question I have about the Cthulhu Mythos: Do literally everything we know about Azathoth and Yog-Sothoth just are infinitely small pieces of what they truly are?
Well, then allow me to be the first (or at least early) to welcome you to this community.
In response to your question, the answer is most definitely yes. Even mediocre Great Old Ones are so utterly incomprehensible to our feeble minds that everything we know about them, including their physical forms as we perceive them, is just an infinitely small piece of what they truly are, and that part has been heavily abridged for the sake of our understanding. And Azathoth and Yog-Sothoth are to the Great Old Ones what the Great Old Ones are to us humans; utterly incomprehensible and all-powerful. Regardless of intellect, there can be no way for anyone to even begin to understand them, as that would directly contradict Lovecraft's philosophy and the whole purpose of the genre he devised.
I hope this answer is satisfactory. Feel free to call upon me if there is anything else you would like to know or talk about.
Heh, thanks for the welcome and the answer (you're also literally the first person here on this site to welcome me). Although I do have a question regarding the part about even the Great Old Ones. If they too are infinitely small pieces of what they really are, and literally nothing can understand them, would this mean even something like Ein Sof would go insane if it ever saw the true forms of the Great Old Ones?
While I must confess I am not entirely familiar with Jewish mythology outside of the Tanakh, and to a lesser extent the Torah and the Talmud, it is my understanding as a professional theologian that the Abrahamic god is significantly weaker than most deities of other earthly religions, and infinitely below the Great Old Ones (although I should mention that in the Cthulhu Mythos, many polytheistic deities such as Nodens and Bast are identified with Elder Gods, who are even more powerful than the Great Old Ones and rather comparable to mediocre Outer Gods). Even beings who are said to be omnipotent within a four-dimensional space-time continuum such as ours, including the Abrahamic god and other monotheistic entities such as, for instance, Eru Ilúvatar, are utterly insignificant compared to the creatures of the Cthulhu Mythos, for whom concepts such as time, space, reality, logic and existence are mere playthings.
However, such a vast difference in power does not necessarily mean one will go insane from seeing their true forms. There are, in the expanded Cthulhu Mythos, numerous humans with psychic powers who are capable of such feats, and divine beings such as those found in our mythologies and religions should have no trouble doing the same. This leads me to suggest that many of our gods would indeed be capable of processing and understand at least lesser Great Old Ones, though this still would not give them any ability to defeat them. Again, this is from the expanded Cthulhu Mythos, where countless independent writers (myself included) may take the characters, creatures and races in entirely different directions than what Lovecraft originally intended - indeed, he would most likely find such ideas detestable and unfitting for his Mythos. If we go only by Lovecraft's vision, there can be no understanding or comprehension of the Great Old Ones, as whatever deities may exist in our universe are mere aspects or avatars of these higher entities that exist entirely beyond time, space and dimensions.
I should also apologize for the time it often takes for me to reply. Between teaching, studying and writing, not much time is left to spend on the Internet, I'm afraid. But please, do not be discouraged; I guarantee that I will always respond and do my best to provide adequate answers, however long it may take.
That's okay, no need for any apologies, as I have plenty of time to read and respond to pretty much all of your responses. Also, thanks again for actually answering my questions (in a very detalied way too) and taking your time to do so (which I haven't seen many people on this site do).
Despite everything said about the Outer Gods/Great Old Ones, this is all just our infinitely limited 3-D perspective? Plus, would you say the Expanded Mythos is much more powerful than the original Cthulhu Mythos like how many users on this site say?
Hello again, a week too late, and happy Álfablót (or Samhain, if that's what you'd prefer).
Indeed, this is all just our infinitely limited perspective. It is simply not possible for us, with any amount of in-depth explanation or study, to fully comprehend even the weakest Great Old Ones; indeed, it would arguably take super-geniuses by human standards to understand even "ordinary" civilizations such as the Elder Things and Mi-Go in full, and I don't see anyone fully understanding the Great Race of Yith. And that's being generous; the complexity and incomprehensibility of Lovecraft's creations can not be overstated. Our inability to understand them is precisely what makes them so terrifying, and is the very foundation upon which cosmic horror is built.
As for the Expanded Mythos, it is unfortunately not possible to make a generalized assumption on its power, as it will vary to an extreme between different writers. Some may depict Cthulhu as a giant, simple-minded monster who is only good for smashing buildings before being taken down by the military, while others may depict it as an all-powerful godlike entity completely beyond dimensions and comprehension. A couple of exmaples;
In Lovecraft's original mythos, the Great Old Ones are utterly all-powerful and invincible, completely beyond concepts such as conflict or even basic comprehension.
In August Derleth's expanded mythos (which is often considered "canon", as Derleth was part of the Lovecraft circle), the Great Old Ones remain all-powerful, but are far more comprehensible than Lovecraft himself intended. Derleth developed beastiaries and systems of organization for them, dividing them into groups and creating wars between them, as well as interpersonal relations that would be understandable to us humans. They can be friends or foes, they mate and procreate, and some even have agendas and personal motivations that we can understand.
In Brian Lumley's expanded mythos, the Great Old Ones are extremely powerful monstrous entities, but they are not invincible. In fact, most of his works focus on characters and organizations devoted to protecting humanity from these creatures, and are often successful in doing so. The main character Titus Crow is ridiculously capable of withstanding the powers of the Great Old Ones, possessing great mental power of his own and a number of devices and abilities that allow him to survive numerous confrontations with them.
Then there are numerous novellas where the Great Old Ones are mindless beasts that are taken down by conventional means, though I prefer to avoid such an insult to the cosmic horror genre, so I can not name a writer by heart.
So no, I would not say that the expanded Cthulhu Mythos is necessarily more powerful than Lovecraft's original works. However, the expanded Cthulhu Mythos does feature these creatures more prominently with little regard to Lovecraft's sense of subtlety, potentially allowing them to display many more direct feats of power. Compare the canon Cthulhu profile to this post which features the same entity with only a handful of additional expanded Mythos stories. There is no saying that Cthulhu can not do all these things in Lovecraft's original vision, but most is left to imagination due to the nature of Lovecraft's works.
Happy Álfablót, and also, wow, the Cthulhu Mythos is much more powerful than I actually expected. If this is all our infinitely limited perspective, would this mean even calling the Great Old Ones ‘true omnipotents’( even though omnipotence isn’t a feat on this site) would just be our view? In addition, based on your own opinion, would you say Azathoth is the most powerful character on this site?
Exactly; the very idea of omnipotence is one devised by human minds, and therefore woefully insufficient to describe the true nature of even the weakest Great Old Ones, let alone the Outer Gods. Words such as "infinite", "eternal" and "all-powerful" are still so close to human comprehension that they would carry no meaning for these entities. You could bring together all of mankind, with our combined imagination and science and belief, and use it to devise any amount of omnipotent, infinite, boundless entities, and the Great Old Ones would still laugh at them – if they would even be bothered to notice our futile effort to create something even remotely comparable to them. There is a reason why characters tend to go insane when attempting to comprehend Lovecraftian entities.
I would say without the shadow of a doubt that the Cthulhu Mythos as a whole is the single most powerful verse on this wiki, with no other fictional franchise (within the extent of my knowledge, at least) coming remotely close to its power. And as you very well know, all of the Cthulhu Mythos is merely Azathoth's dream (and of course, what we know of the Cthulhu Mythos – including everything said in this conversation – is just an infinitely small part of that dream). Based on this, I would say that I do consider Azathoth the most powerful character on this site. Some, however, like to argue that Yog-Sothoth could be considered comparable to Azathoth, if for no other reason than the fact that Azathoth is in a state of perpetual sleep, completely uncaring for the things it has created, whereas Yog-Sothoth actually exercises its power rather frequently. Regardless, Yog-Sothoth is still obviously above "omnipotence" as we understand it, so it matters little how it compares to Azathoth. Both of them are infinitely above high-ranking Outer Gods, who are infinitely above lesser Outer Gods, who are infinitely above high-ranking Great Old Ones, who are infinitely above lesser Great Old Ones, who are infinitely above their servitors, who are infinitely above anything that human minds can comprehend. So much infinity...
Yeesh, the thought of the Great Old Ones being above the idea of omnipotence should easily put characters like TOAA and the Writer to shame. Albeit, I do have one last question: Is the only thing that limits these characters are the fact that their still fiction?
While I prefer to stay away from Marvel and DC Comics and therefore cannot offer an entirely educated view on the matter, I would assume that they can not come up with anything remotely comparable to the Lovecraftian deities. Looking at the profiles of the characters you mentioned, they appear to be very basic "omnipotents" and therefore well below the Cthulhu Mythos.
But regarding the Great Old Ones, who is to say that they are fictional? Thousands believe that the deities Lovecraft supposedly created are in fact real and that he was a prophet of sorts, and there are numerous feats of reality-fiction interaction even in the Lovecraft canon, with entities like Azathoth and Yog-Sothoth explicitly transcending the idea of reality and fiction as we understand it. Like everything else, reality and fiction, and any boundary that may exist between them, is merely based on the limited perception and imagination of human minds, and therefore completely irrelevant to such entities. What does it matter to them how a race as insignificant as ours divide the universe, or how we attempt to measure power? Nothing we can say or do will ever allow us to comprehend even a small portion of what the Great Old Ones truly are.
Woah, slow down there. You did make a few great points that I would like to bring up, and I do have some questions I wanna ask:
1) Are you actually being serious in your second paragraph? Because this response is something that I've never seen any admin on this site say.
2) "Azathoth and Yog-Sothoth explicitly transcending the idea of reality and fiction as we understand it. Like everything else, reality and fiction, and any boundary that may exist between them, is merely based on the limited perception and imagination of human minds, and therefore completely irrelevant to such entities" Uhh, doesn't this technically violate this site's "Reality-Fiction Interaction" rules?
3) Despite the incomprehensibility of these beings, their still technically creations that were conceived by a human (HP Lovecraft).
Of course, I am happy to answer any questions that you might have, now and in the future.
1) Indeed, I am being serious (and just in case there has been some misunderstanding, I am not an admin; those are recognized by the violet color of their user names). I can not think of anything else to write here that is not answered better in the next two points, however;
2) That may be true. But I am not advocating that anything I say in this conversation should be added to the official profiles; I am only explaining my own personal understanding of the Cthulhu Mythos, regardless of the restrictions imposed by this wiki. While this site can disallow certain abilities (such as reality-fiction interaction) within the confines of itself, it is completely powerless to determine what characters can actually do in their origin verses, just as it can not stop me from stating my personal opinion in an unofficial conversation. The only rules I am obligated to follow here are those related to interpersonal conduct (which I do hope I have not violated so far; I know that some people have experienced me as obnoxious and condescending, which I assure you is entirely unintentional). However, a fictional character can obviously not interact with our reality, only “reality” within the confines of its own fiction, no matter how that fiction is written.
3) While I personally do not believe in the reality of Lovecraft's creations, being of the Norse faith myself, this does not mean that I wish to disrespect those that do. Thousands of people across the world (including two of my personal acquaintances) worship the Great Old Ones and the Outer Gods, and I have no intention to marginalize or insult their beliefs simply because I do not share them, or because their numbers are smaller than that of some other religions. On the contrary, I have always been an avid proponent of interfaith dialogue and even tried my hand at pagan syncretism. Therefore I am not inclined to agree with your statement, at least not with absolute certainty; as the omnistic school of thought likes to put it, any god is real if even a single person believes in it, and no god is more or less real than any other. Even if we can trace them back to their origins.
2) Wait, so your technically saying that Azathoth/Yog-Sothoth are only beyond "Reality and Fiction" from an In-Universe perspective, right?
3) I think you sort of misinterpreted this question here. I was trying to explain that despite the nature of the Outer Gods and the Great Old Ones in the Cthulhu Mythos, they are still, after all, beings that Lovecraft created, which does contradict the fact that their beyond concepts like "creation/destruction/logic," etc.
2) Well, of course they are only beyond reality and fiction within their own universe (or rather, the infinite number of infinite universes that make up the Cthulhu Mythos franchise). It would not be possible to create a character capable of interacting with our reality, as that would still only happen within the fiction itself, nor could they possibly interact with other works of fiction without cooperation between the respective authors. But within the laws defined by the writers of the Cthulhu Mythos, the Outer Gods are completely beyond such simplistic definitions as reality and fiction.
3) If we accept that they are the fictional creations of Lovecraft and other writers, and not some ancient entities that actually exist in our universe, then yes; they possess only what powers their writers bestow to them (which in the case of the Cthulhu Mythos, often include explicit descriptions of how they transcend logic, reality/fiction, creation/destruction etc.). If one is to understand a fictional entity, one must look upon them through the lens of their respective universe and not our own, as it will never be possible for interaction between reality and fiction (at least not within our reality, as we understand it. But then again, our minds are too limited to comprehend the higher mysteries of the universe, so who is to say that the boundaries between reality and fiction can not actually be penetrated?).
2) So, let me get this straight. If you don't believe that these entities are real, then their still fictional characters. Howvever, for the people that actually believe that these entities exist, then the Great Old Ones must actually/literally be beyond our real-world and fiction altogether (again, for the poepl that actually believe in them).
3)Now, what I'm about to say next might make me sound like a nutcase, but it's just simply one of those "What-If?" type of questions. Now, let's say that what we define as 'fiction' actually does happen to exist in some realm outside of another universe. So, this would mean that stuff like Marvel, DC, Star Wars, etc actually does happen to exist in the real world, except in another universe outside our own. If we were to somehow "break a hole" in this dimension, and let fictional characters come into our real-world, would Azathoth then actually be our real-life "God" (if he happened to be one of the characters that came into our reality)?
2) I suppose that should be about right, if we do assign the reality of their existence to the belief of mortals. If they did exist, they would obviously not care whether anyone believed in them or worshiped them (except for a few entities in the Expanded Cthulhu Mythos that are dependent on their worshipers for some reason or another).
3) Please, this does not make you sound like a nutcase at all; on the contrary, asking these kinds of questions is the very foundation of the theological sciences that I teach. To answer your question, yes, I would presume that Azathoth would be the supreme being of such an existence; as I stated before, I can not imagine any other entity (real or fictional) coming close to its power, and anything that did would still only be a part of its dream. Because nothing can be, or not be, outside of the dreams of Azathoth. However, Azathoth would certainly not be the most worshiped entity, as it is not only incomprehensible to mortal minds but also asleep and inactive; Yog-Sothoth would have a far greater following, as would Shub-Niggurath and Nyarlathotep and even Cthulhu. But all of those followings would be struck by madness sooner or later, leading me to believe that much weaker entities from other franchises than the Cthulhu Mythos would command the worship of the greater majority of people.
This is actually incredible, even though the Outer Gods are still technically fiction (in my viewpoint).
3) Great response, although I do have another point I want to bring up about one of your previous responses. You do mention that labeling the Great Old Ones as real or fiction or not is irrelevant. Would this mean that the Great Old Ones would technically be beyond the definitions of “real-life” and “fiction” from a real-world perspective (ie, looking at it from our viewpoint, and also staying true to their nature)?
3) Yes indeed. The Great Old Ones are entirely beyond anything we can possibly define with our fragile little minds and limited perspective, and that includes fiction and reality. They are simply beyond and above anything and everything – at least everything we are capable of even remotely understanding or speaking of. I do not know what else to say that has not been said already, though I regret not coming up with more after taking so long to respond.
That’s alright, I can wait for any response regardless of time. However, I do one to bring up something that you stated earlier. Waaayy back up in one of your first posts, you do mention that humans with psychic powers can understand these beings in the Expanded Mythos. Does this mean humans like us in the real-world could understand Azathoth if these psychic powers existed in the real-world?
In those portions of the Expanded Mythos where such a thing is possible – something that directly contradicts Lovecraft's own ideas and should thus be taken with a grain of salt if we want to establish a coherent “canon” – then yes, such a thing would be possible. But then again, in these stories the Great Old Ones are not nearly as incredibly above-anything-and-everything as in some other stories. So yes, psychic humans (perhaps even ordinary humans in some stories) may be capable of understanding that incarnation of Azathoth, which is not the same as the indescribably powerful entity Lovecraft himself imagined.
Unfortunately, the Expanded Mythos suffers from incredible amounts of inconsistency like this, due to the huge variety of writers that all want to show their own personal take on Lovecraft's stories.
Okay, although I do have another important question regarding Azathoth. What if Azathoth himself (from the original Cthulhu Mythos, not from any Expanded stories) decided to grant a human the ability to understand it (Azathoth)?
Then that human would instantly understand Azathoth, and anything else that Azathoth wanted them to understand. Azathoth is – in terms that our fragile human minds can understand – completely omnipotent, and can change anything it desires without any limitation whatsoever. Except for one, of course; the fact that Azathoth is asleep and does not consciously affect what happens in its dream. But of course, Azathoth could change that as well, if it somehow decided to become aware of everything and actively control it.
If Azathoth does not want the human to go insane, they won't. If Azathoth (which is more likely) does not care, then the human would likely die due to their brain being overwhelmed with knowledge to the point of ceasing to function. And if Azathoth wants the human to know everything, they will (though this is already implied, as understanding Azathoth is synonymous with understanding everything). It's all dependent on what Azathoth wants, as everything is simply made up of its dream. Such is the nature of omnipotence.
Oh, not at all. Talking about things that interest me can never become annoying (although I do feel that I have been going in circles and repeated the same things in response to different questions). Feel free to ask me anything that's on your mind, be it regarding the Cthulhu Mythos or Star Wars or Norse paganism or any of the other subjects I have knowledge of (though it might be prudent to start another thread if you want to discuss another subject). And if you have multiple questions, feel free to post them all at once so you won't have to wait for each response individually.
Oh, okay. I just thought you may have become annoyed, albeit this is because due to the fact that I’ve seen other admins On this site look like they’re becoming irritated after a while of talking. But anyways, I want to ask a few other things:
1) When you mentioned Star Wars, you did bring to my head this verse called “Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy.” Now, you may not really know this verse, but I certainly do. Now, in this verse is this device called an “Infinite Improbability Drive.” It’s a device that can make any impossible thing possible. It doesn’t have any limits to what it can do, and even if it does, let’s just put any limits it has to the side right now. So basically, this device can do literally everything/anything. If this “Infinite Improbability Drive” can make things in the realm of impossibility possible, could it be used to affect Azathoth? I’m saying this because trying to affect Azathoth is one of those things in the ‘realm of impossibility.’
Hmm, I’m guessing you may not be responding due to the fact that you probably didn’t understand my question or probably don’t know the verse the Infinite Improbability Drive comes from. That’s okay. I guess I’ll just put my next question here. When you do respond, I would appreciate if you could answer my question above, but you don’t necessarily have to. I would also appreciate if you could answer both my questions, but that’s also okay if you can’t.
2) While you did say that weakest Great Old Ones are beyond the idea of Omnipotence, I’ve actually heard the contrary. Now that I’ve been going through older threads, I do now remember that Azathoth (the administrator) said that literally nothing can be beyond Omnipotence, not even Azathoth. However, you said even the weakest Great Old Ones are beyond the idea of it. I was wondering if you could clarify all of this.
Not at all, you made your question perfectly clear. I am sorry for my long absence, which has purely been due to the usual time constraints (teaching, studying & writing), with the addition of unexpected health issues. There is much to be done professionally before the holidays, and almost daily hospital visits were certainly not wanted in my already cramped schedule. My replies will most likely continue to come painstakingly slowly for the rest of the year, unfortunately. But that doesn't mean I'm not happy to answer your questions. I only hope that my replies are satisfactory when they do come.
As for the behavior of the admins, I'm afraid not everyone has the patience to deal with such frequent questioning, and even fewer find it as enjoyable as I do. Especially not when they are responsible for maintaining a site with 23,500 pages and tens of thousands of users. I know better than most how stressful it can be to have such responsibilities, for others to depend on you. Though in my view, helping others is its own reward, and something I never grow tired of. You need never worry about annoying me with your questions; I practically never get irritated... I just sound like it most of the time when writing. I suppose I could employ emotes or ideograms to convey my mood better, but I'm afraid people might not take me seriously if I do.
1) I do know of that verse, at least remotely, and I certainly understand the device you describe. But it would still be inadequate to affect Azathoth, at least against the Outer God's will. You must understand that any type of power, device, entity or ability, no matter how powerful or logic-defying it may be, is still just an infinitely small portion of Azathoth's dream and completely incapable of affecting even lesser deities within the Cthulhu Mythos. The Infinite Improbability Device, like other forms of logic/reality/probability manipulation, is something even the Great Old Ones would scoff at. After all, you who are human (or so I presume) understand what it does. As a rule of thumb, anything within our understanding will be inadequate to fight the Great Old Ones.
2) I can certainly clarify it, but it will make me feel like I am simply saying the same thing over and over again. “Omnipotence” is a term conceived and understood by humans, and therefore it can not begin to describe entities such as the Great Old Ones, who are entirely beyond human understanding. No matter what terms, abilities or entities that human minds make up, it will still be at least somewhat comprehensible to us, making it infinitely below the Great Old Ones, who are in turn infinitely below the Outer Gods... and note that “infinitely” is of course a word that is, well, infinitely inadequate to describe these entities. No explanation of mine – as I, too, am human – will ever be sufficient to bring about even the slightest understanding of the power that these entities hold.
That’s alright, like I said before. You don’t need to apologize, I can always wait, no matter how long it takes for you to reply back. And again, thanks for replying to my posts, despite the circumstances you are in right now. You also don’t need to keep messaging me if you don’t want to. Even though you claim you never get annoyed/enjoy answering questions, I feel like your probably all worn out, based on what you said. As for your visits to the hospital, I do sincerely hope that you get better soon before the holidays.
1) Both these answers pretty much answered any further questions I have. Albeit, there’s just something on my mind that’s bugged me; Before Demonbane got downgraded, people were actually accepting that Azathoth from Demonbane was as powerful as the one in the Cthulhu Mythos. Even more, people were literally believed that Demonbane was equal to Yog-Sothoth. Yet, Demonbane is a human creation, but yet, he’s capable of standing toe-to-toe with Yog-Sothoth. This like, completely contradicts all of the info we’ve said in this conversation. Does this mean Demonbane must be, like, literally second to God?
I’ll just post my next 2 questions here, so that way this could speed up what I want to ask.
2) This question may sound very redundant (super sorry about that, I’m just very curious), albeit I was just wondering. On the Superpower wiki, there exist this power called ‘Meta-Miracle-Manipulation.’ It’s a power that activates when the situation is at it’s most hopeless. Basically, when there’s literally no chance of success whatsoever, this power activates. Could it work against Azathoth? Because there is no situation more hopeless than standing against Azathoth.
3) If someone obtained Omnipotence, and then used it against the Great Old Ones, how would they (the Great Old Ones) react?
Eh, I’ll just post my next questions here as well (Also note, I’m not losing my patience here, I’m just going to do what you said and post all of my questions at once to get all of my responses in one go, albeit I feel like you should make your replies in to 2 separate posts, as I feel like fitting all of your responses in 1 post would be a pretty huge task).
4) I feel like you did open up a “loophole” in some of your responses. While you said we can’t ever understand these entities, the keyword here is: “Understand” Couldn’t an omnipotent being use his powers to understand Azathoth? Omnipotence allows you to get all your desires, regardless of how illogical or impossible they are.
5) As insane as this may sound, I actually figured out a way for humans to understand and comprehend Azathoth: Get an equally powerful and incomprehensible entity, albeit this argument does make a lot of assumptions, and it would probably take up your entire message wall, so I probably won’t post it here.
Your considerations are most appreciated, and I hope that my extended absence has not discouraged you from asking me whatever else you may wish to know in the future. I cannot help but feel sorry for taking so long to reply, but now it seems that my health is finally beginning to improve and my need for regular hospital care is abating, so I have finally found the time and energy to answer your questions. I apologize if my answers are a bit short, but I could not find a way to go into deeper detail without repeating the same (already overused) arguments yet again. I feel like every answer I give could simply be summarized as “if we understand it, then it won't work”.
1) I have some degree of familiarity with Demonbane, though it is mostly limited to the early chapters and episodes – I sought it out hoping for an accurate or at least interesting take on the Cthulhu Mythos, and was unfortunately somewhat disappointed. I do not know for sure why Demonbane's Outer Gods are believed to be as powerful as those in the real Cthulhu Mythos, but I highly doubt it, as the ability for humans (or something created or understood by humans) to fight them would directly contradict their very purpose in a faithful Lovecraftian narrative. I wouldn't put too much faith in Demonbane's depiction of the Outer Gods, or even the Great Old Ones, to be even remotely accurate.
2) Meta Miracle Manipulation is, as stated on the Superpower wiki, a mere expression of Omnipotence. So no, it would most certainly not work against Azathoth, who is infinitely beyond Omnipotence as we understand it, just as it is beyond any other power listed on that wiki. All those powers are, after all, made up by the feeble minds of humans.
3) That is not an easy question to answer; Omnipotence is the ability to do anything, but it is still a power that we as humans can understand, which leads me to place it – in my opinion, at least – below the abilities of even the Great Old Ones, let alone the Outer Gods. An Omnipotent character would certainly be able to destroy the Great Old Ones' manifestations in our reality, but their true selves remain completely outside of anything we can understand.
4) Omnipotence allows only what the user can imagine themselves desiring to do, which would not encompass the entities from the Cthulhu Mythos. How do you affect something you cannot understand? Now, if Omnipotence was coupled with true Omniscience and an intellect so incredibly superior to human minds that we can not begin to comprehend it, then maybe... maybe such a character could take out a Great Old One. But against the Outer Gods, we can never argue for anything or anyone being even remotely comparable, no matter what “all-powerful” abilities our feeble minds make up.
5) The thing is that – to the extent of my knowledge, at least – no such entity exists. Of all the “almighty”, “incomprehensible” and “omnipotent” entities I know of in fiction and mythology, none appears even remotely comparable to the Outer Gods of the Cthulhu Mythos. It would be impossible for a fiction writer or religious leader to imagine something greater than Azathoth, as even the Great Old Ones can not be fully grasped and imagined, and therefore no entity can ever be made greater than (or even comparable to) Azathoth. Lovecraft has pretty much guaranteed his franchise's invincibility... although he would utterly disdain the idea of pitting his entities into battle, or attempting to bestow to them comprehensible powers or abilities.
You don't have to worry about taking forever to respond, as I've said before I can wait as long as possible. I am glad that you are also getting better, and do continue to take care of yourself. In addiiton, all of the answers you gave me pretty much answer almost all future questions I have about these entities. Albeit, I do have two very last things that I want to point out:
1) That very last response does seem to imply a little ignorance (however, no offense to you or anyone). Now that I have done a bit more research, I have noticed that Ein Sof is very similar in description to Azathoth. The same with Brahman. Both are described as entities that can never be fully understood. If we also go by this wiki, anything that is said at any level will always be a limited description of Ein Sof, with the real thing being unable to be comprehended by anyone. This does raise a few questions/ideas.
2) If someone were to use the Necromonicon to summon Yog-Sothoth, it would only be a mere avatar, right?
Well, fortunately you didn't have to wait very long this time, as you caught me just before work. I think I have enough time to answer your questions right now.
1) Indeed, I must admit ignorance of Jewish mythology outside of the primary scriptures, and my theological studies never covered the Kabbalah, so I am reluctant to speak with any degree of certainty about Ein Sof. But from what I can gather after (very briefly) scouring through a few articles on the subject, I can not find any description of Ein Sof that would justify its comparison to Azathoth; I could, however, concede that it might be a match for the Great Old Ones, who are described in a similar manner (all-powerful, impossible to understand, completely beyond everything etc.). Brahman, on the other hand, I do have some understanding of, but I still feel inclined to point out that my studies of Hinduism were regrettably short-lived, so my knowledge on that subject is also not absolute. If my understanding of Brahman is correct, then I would first of all not regard it as a being at all, but rather as an omnipresent concept perhaps more akin to, say, the Force in Star Wars; it is part of everything, and nothing can exist outside of it, but it does not have a personality with desires and thoughts in any manner that we as humans would understand. Either way, I say the same of Brahman as I say of Ein Sof; anything that is described as all-powerful, unexplainable and incomprehensible, may still not exceed the Great Old Ones, who are given the same accolades. And the Outer Gods are to the Great Old Ones what the Great Old Ones are to us humans. Though again, I must repeat that my knowledge of Brahman is not absolute, and that many other theologians may be able to provide a much more satisfying response in that regard (assuming, of course, that they also have a deep understanding of the Cthulhu Mythos). I could contact one of my Hindu associates for a better explanation if you'd like, but I feel that they would be obviously biased in comparing anything from their religion against a fictional entity.
2) Yes. Yog-Sothoth cannot manifest its true self in this universe – not due to lack of ability, mind you, but because its mere presence would probably cause our limited four-dimensional space to instantly fall apart, as it can not possibly contain such a higher-dimensional entity (indeed, an entity that is completely beyond dimensions as a concept). It would be the rough equivalent of you attempting to manifest yourself inside a two-dimensional picture, except that whereas you and a picture have only one dimension between your physical forms, Yog-Sothoth and our universe has infinite ones. The same goes for all Outer Gods, and even the Great Old Ones that appear in the Cthulhu Mythos stories are just avatars, reflections or shadows of their true selves, that exist outside of our universe and well above four-dimensional space.
2) Well, of course they could... but why would they? I see no reason to believe that any Outer God would take measures to protect the continued existence of our irrelevant little universe, with the possible exception of Nyarlathotep who so enjoys toying with lesser things such as us, and perhaps also Yog-Sothoth who seems (in some Expanded Mythos stories, at least) willing to keep the current order of things in place and may intervene against anything that threatens it. Obviously the Outer Gods could defy all logic and dimensional structures and enter our universe at full power, but only so long as they consciously sought to keep it from falling apart.
That’s actually a bit funny. Considering the sheer magnitude of these entities, and how their beyond the concepts of life/death, creation/destruction, existence/non-existence, couldn’t Yog-Sothoth completely end the concept of “threatening?”
If the threat comes from a fellow Outer God, it is impossible to say. There is no way to tell for certain whether or not even the indescribably almighty Yog-Sothoth can put an end to fellow Outer Gods. Even most Great Old Ones are well above the idea of “fighting”, and to properly compare them against one another is not something we are mentally capable of. Of course, there are Expanded Cthulhu Mythos stories where they do fight against one another (Cthulhu vs Kthanid and Cthulhu vs Hastur are recurring confrontations), but of course this is not consistent with Lovecraft's depiction of them, and even the most action-fond writer would hesitate to pit entities like the Outer Gods against one another in battle.
"not even the indescribably almighty Yog-Sothoth can put an end to the fellow Outer Gods" Isn't this quote simply based on our perspective? The idea of the Outer Gods having a defeat/death is something that they are completely beyond. From everything in this discussion, we probably just can't say anything about these entities, as they are completely beyond our comprehension and human words.
You are entirely correct. Everything we've said has, obviously, been based on our limited perspective, as that is the only way we can speak of the Cthulhu Mythos; we will never be able to comprehend anything but the most infinitely minuscule fractions of these entities. All we can do is speculate based on what little information we do possess and understand.
Which means that if someone tried to someone these entities, it will always be an avatar? And even if the ‘real’ entities decided to intervene, it will still be an avatar, due to the words ‘real entities’ being things we humans made up? Based on what you said a few messages above, the Outer Gods could enter our universe at full power, but that’s also how we comprehend it. “Full power” is two words that humans made up.
summon* I’ll leave my next question here, but this time I was wondering if you could tell me what could happen.
2) Let’s say there’s a room about 50 feet wide. On one side is the Necromonicon. On the other side is a ‘chant’ on a piece of paper, which can summon Azathoth. Now let’s say a cultist used the Necromonicon to summon Yog-Sothoth, while another cultist uses the paper to summon Azathoth. Both summons happen at the same time, in the same place. Now, what do you believe could happen?
Hi, I see you’re a knowledgeable member on the Star Wars EU, would you mind giving some input here? We began a discussion on if Anakin/Vader/Dooku would scale to the top tiers like Yoda, Windu and Sidious and nobody’s responded in a while.
It appears that I have been too slow to respond, as the thread is now closed. I am sorry for the delay.
In response to your question, it is my understanding – not from any one particular source or established fact, but from a lifetime of immersion into the Star Wars mythos – that Darth Vader and Darth Tyranus (Dooku) might indeed be scaled to Windu. Anakin, however, does not, and Obi-Wan Kenobi does not even deserve a mention; those two have many contemporaries who have proven comparable if not superior to them, such as Shaak Ti, Plo Koon, Depa Bilaba (who actually stalemated Mace Windu in a duel) and Yaddle. Even the likes of Agen Kolar (whom, as you must very well know, Darth Sidious casually killed in a single strike) could one-shot Quinlan Vos, who is often compared to Obi-Wan.
Then, if we look at other eras, there are more Sith and Jedi than I would like to count who I believe are superior to the likes of Dooku, and who would utterly dominate Anakin and Obi-Wan with barely an effort... the Sith Emperor, Darth Jadus, Arcann, Thexan and Vaylin, Revan, Exar Kun, all the reigning Dark Lords of the Ancient Sith, the four Force-wielding player characters of Star Wars: The Old Republic, and the list goes on.
Anakin and Obi-Wan are among the most overrated characters in Star Wars, mostly due to their screen-time and the favoritism of a few authors (and many, many fans). No one can deny that Obi-Wan is an excellent Jedi Master, and Anakin had an incredible potential (which he never even remotely lived up to), but they are not by any means top tier. Many of their feats are performed under very special circumstances and is not consistent with their regular displays of power compared to those that they sometimes go toe-to-toe with, including Anakin's defeat of Dooku.
I understand the difficulty of comparing characters from different eras who never interact with each other, but simply looking at their displays of power in comparison to one another gives a clear indication of who is more powerful. For instance, there is absolutely no excuse to compare anyone to Darth Sidious without including Vitiate (and that includes Darth Caedus, who – aside from the claims that he is comparable to Luke – does not display anything that warrants him being in the same league as either of the two Emperors, or even in the top tier). Restricting ourselves to the era of the two trilogies, that becomes much more easy; my final verdict is that Dooku and Vader can be scaled to Windu, who is comparable to (but weaker than) Yoda and Sidious; however, as I said in the beginning, this is purely conjectural and not an established fact. Whether or not they should be scaled to Windu is entirely up to the standards of this wiki to decide.
Again, I apologize for responding so slowly. But please, do not feel discouraged from calling upon me again if there is another debate where my input might be helpful, and I shall do my best to find the time to respond more quickly.
Hello. I'm from the Verse Audit group, and having gone through many of the Lord of the Rings profiles, the verse has been classified as Yellow, meaning it misses several criteria and needs some work. As you have listed yourself as a knowledgeable member for the verse, I'm contacting you to ask if you would be willing to go through the pages and do the following:
Fix the powers and abilities section so powers are listed in the format of "Specific Power (Brief explanation/Justification)" if they are not already.
My apologies for the late reply - my work schedule has not been kind to me lately.
While I agree that these revisions are sorely needed, I am afraid that I must decline to actively partake in this project as of now due to time constraints. Between writing and teaching (and studying), what time I do have to spend on this wiki is already reserved for a massive revision project on Norse Mythology (on which I am far behind schedule).
But of course, should I come across an article and notice something that I could immediately improve, I will gladly make that adjustment, as should be expected of any member of this community. I wish the rest of you good luck in this endeavor, and I will offer my practical support if conditions change and time allows it.
Ogurtsow wrote: Would you like to add yourself to the Multilingual Members List? According to your user page, you're very well-versed in Scandinavian languages.
Of course. I will gladly work to provide a better understanding of Scandinavian source material to the community at large. Much of the original meaning of a text can be lost in translation, especially when it comes to song and poetry, so I will do my best to remedy this if called upon.
Great. You're obviously that type of profile makers I like the most.
Could you translate the header of my user page into languages you speak and add it to the tabber in alphabetical order? It's currently lacking Scandinavian languages (Only Swedish is presented) so I relay on your help. One language per day should be fine. I will be grateful.
Ogurtsow wrote: Great. You're obviously that type of profile makers I like the most.
Could you translate the header of my user page into languages you speak and add it to the tabber in alphabetical order? It's currently lacking Scandinavian languages (Only Swedish is presented) so I relay on your help. One language per day should be fine. I will be grateful.
Well, there you go. I apologize for not yet adding Faroese, but I know it mostly from mutual intelligibility with Icelandic, and I am not entirely confident in my grammar without first consulting a dictionary So it might take a little longer.