I don't believe this has come up recently, so I can't quite recall which instance you refer to.
Regardless, I was probably rationalising something along the lines of them also destroying the World of Kais (which is spacially outside of Universe 7) and Otherworld (which is said to have a different space-time from the mortal universe).
I don't suppose you could link me to the thread you have in mind? Curious on what I said.
It seems the rationale I was using is, indeed, that Goku was effecting dimensions outside of Universe 7, which is why the destruction being limited to U7 didn't make much sense to me.
Also, Beerus was upgraded to 50% of 2-C since then, making the point that Beerus being concerned over X10 SSB makes little sense, if Goku himself wasn't even breaching the same tier.
The discontent with that perspective is that Elder Kai states that everything inside the universe will become a vacuum, however fictions rarely, if ever, make a particular distinction between destroying a universe's matter and a universe's spacetime. I honestly disagree with the notion of '3-A' and 'Low 2-C' being separate tiers.
I don’t thank that’s totally necessary to make them the same tier because there are stil sometimes distinctions between physical matter and the entire universe. But based on how dbs treats the destruction of a universe and a held back beerus, I think a possibly low 2-C might work but I don’t want to make any revision thread myself, and I doubt the staff would be eager for another dB upgrade thread.
because there are stil sometimes distinctions between physical matter and the entire universe.
It's extremely rare for a fiction to distinguish between destroying a universe's spacetime or a universe's matter. If a feat is universal, it's universal. Bringing in 'space' and 'time' destruction has way too much crossover with Space/Time hax.
The wiki in-itself contradicts this, anyways. Jiren is stated to 'transcend' time and this is considered an outlier, why? He's Low 2-C. He, by definition, is capable of transcending and destroying spacetime. Every single Low 2-C should have resistance to Space/Time hax and non-physical interaction, but for whatever reason they don't.
But based on how dbs treats the destruction of a universe and a held back beerus, I think a possibly low 2-C might work
IIRC the subtitles are a mistranslation. They don't even mention it as just the 'universe' or turning it into a vacuum, just that existence was being erased. I'd have to look around, but I definitely recall this being brought up before.
and I doubt the staff would be eager for another dB upgrade thread.
Full honesty, I've developed the perspective that the Wiki staff strongly opposes Dragon Ball in general. You can't get any upgrades or revisions, for stats, through the door without intense debate.
Also, what does half 2-C mean exactly?
Basically, the Wiki treats the gaps between Low 2-C and 2-C as unquantifiable, but still possible to reach 2-C from Low 2-C via raw powerscaling, as long as backscaling from 2-C feats exist.
Beerus and Champa were stated to be capable of destroying Universe 6 and 7 if they began to fight, so it was determined they would have destroyed both universes as a result of them fighting.
That is, Champa is a Low 2-C that is half the power of a baseline 2-C. Beerus is stronger than Champa but the degree is unknown.
This is a pretty controversial, and difficult, question that I feel unqualified to answer. I would say Lifting Strength would be more sensible, though, considering AP can refer to virtually any type of offense.
However, you should also take into account durability. If someone has the durability to, say, take a Kamehameha to the face, then unless that lifting strength has feats of AP equaling that Kamehameha it shouldn't be capable of ripping their arm off.
I consider it murky because you can have 3-As like U6 Vegeta who can't even lift 1,000 tons, but he can easily bust universes. The lifting anti-feats are usually considered outliers, but it's still an issue.
To be safe, I would suggest incorporating it as AP and Lifting Strength vs Durability. A person with the strength to tow stars shouldn't be capable of tearing apart someone with 4-B durability, for example.
As for arguing Lifting Strength vs Lifting Strength, I suppose it's sensible to claim the person with stronger lifting strength wouldn't get their arms torn off in a struggle of pure strength. However, they would be unable to harm the person with higher durability.
Thank you. I don't care for the winner but Dragonmer was discussing Vegeta simply ripping off Captain Marvel's arms due to higher AP, despite the fact he's not even in one shot range and her having Likely Class Z.
I really don't think either can rip anything off anyway. Regardless thanks for the thorough answer.
Super Saiyan Kefla's power rivals the Universe 7 Spirit Bomb, which should surpass the power of KKX20 Goku Blue. UIS1 Goku seems to scale above the Spirit Bomb.
The Spirit Bomb should be akin to Infinite Zamasu, due to Jiren's power struggling against it (when that level of power was said to be the greatest ever felt) so SS1 Kefla would be roughly baseline Low 2-C, maybe higher.
Vados claimed SS1 Kefla would likely struggle with a full power SSB Goku, so a peak form Post-UIS1 SSB Goku seems to about as strong as UIS1 Goku and SS1 Kefla.
The power of Super Saiyan 2 is hard to determine, more so with Kale's influence, but it should be in excess of 2x Super Saiyan, based on 50% SS2 Gohan resisting Super Perfect Cell, when Perfect Cell could curbstomp 100% SS1 Gohan.
Overall, SS2 Kefla is at least 2x Low 2-C.
As argued above, full power SSB Goku rivals the Spirit Bomb and UIS1 Goku, based on Vados' concerns regarding SS1 Kefla versus full power SSB Goku and SS1 Kefla rivalling the Spirit Bomb.
Post-UIS2 Goku is stronger than UIS1 Goku, having pushed Jiren to use more power than ever before.
You might argue, then, that since SSBKK Goku could hurt SS1 Kefla (when heavily exhausted) and later, SSB Goku could pressure Jiren to try harder...that Post-UIS2 Goku is at least twice as strong as before, but the anime claims Goku recovers stamina as he fights.
Overall, Post-UIS2 SSB Goku is likely around 1-2x baseline Low 2-C.
Post-UIS1 FPSSB Goku is implied to be as strong, or stronger, than SS1 Kefla by Vados and Kefla grows at least twice as strong when she goes SS2.
Post-UIS2 Goku pushed Jiren harder than UIS1 Goku, but the gap between Post-UIS1 and Post-UIS2 is unknown.
Right now I would say:
SS2 Kefla (at least 2x baseline) > Post-UIS2 SSB Goku (surpasses UIS1 Goku, who surpasses Infinite Zamasu) > Post-UIS1 SSB Goku (comparable to the Spirit Bomb) >/= SS1 Kefla (equal to the Spirit Bomb)
However, Goku was tired when he fought Jiren Post-UIS2, so a full power SSB Goku might be considerably stronger.
I would overall say that Post-UIS2 SSB Goku is likely comparable to SS2 Kefla, maybe stronger.
Also, with this in mmind, what about Anilaza? And the other guys who fought Anilaza (Gohan, 17, Frieza)? Anilaza was drastically overpowering the likes of SSGSS Goku, who should be Low 2C based on your scaling, and the other 3 participated in the beam struggle against him, with 17 being able to demolish Anilaza's power core
So shouldn't everyone who fought Anilaza (except 18) be Low 2C?
Anilaza fought Post-UIS2 Goku Blue and handled the combined strength of everyone else + Goku Blue, he should be Low 2-C.
And the other guys who fought Anilaza (Gohan, 17, Frieza)?
It's a bit inconsistent. You can argue Gohan grew stronger via Zenkai (stronger as he fights) and Frieza grew stronger due to his prodigious abilities, but 17 doesn't seem to have any justification for his power throughout the series.
I would say 17 could be argued to be Low 2-C with barriers and when using all of his energy to detonate (seeing as he wiped away Jiren's attack with it). Gohan and Frieza seem like they could have reasonably adapted over time due to their inherent prodigious growth.
There is overall zero reason for SS1 Kefla and Anilaza to not be Low 2-C, and the only reason to not consider Gohan, 17 and Frieza to not be Low 2-C is due to potentially being outliers, although Low 2-C Frieza and 17 is consistent with their conflicts against Jiren and Toppo.
Frieza tanked a pointblank Hakai from Toppo, endured a brutal beatdown less than a minute after, then seemed completely recovered less than a minute after that. He also could knock away Jiren (albeit in base form, so pretty outlier) and endured multiple punches from Jiren before being knocked out. We have no reason to think Jiren powered down after knocking out 17, Goku and Vegeta.
17 had his parkour against Toppo, and endured a blow from Jiren intended for SSBE Vegeta (although Vegeta was HEAVILY drained at this point).
How 17 grew so strong, so fast, is a big question and Gohan's fight against Anilaza is a bit of an outlier compared to everything else (we have no reason to think Dyspo, for example, has Low 2-C AP) but makes some sense due to his Zenkai ability and potential.
In full honesty, I've always considered Infinite and Unquantifiable speed to be stupid but in terms of Wiki standards I would say:
While I have seen legitimate arguments against the World of Void counting as a timeless void, this literally concerns Gods of Time having statements concerning things 'outside of time'. This seems like it should fall under Irrelevant speed, or at least Infinite speed.
Of course, by comparing to characters moving inside an erased space-time (Zeno erasing the future timeline) and the World of Void, I can see how there would be opposition to scaling characters based on moving in a 'timeless' location in DBH.
Overall, it's worth debating and I think there is validity to claiming DBH is Irrelevant or Infinite speed based on these scans.
Kicking at the ground, Gogeta blasts away. In pursuit, Broly disappears like a hurricane. Broly begins firing continuous energy blasts with tremendous force. As he dodges them without problem, Gogeta makes his way to an open field, after which he turns around, grips his fists around his hips and assumes a stance.
"Let's do this! Haaaa..."
We see this scene in the film, but the novel explicitly states Base Gogeta has no problem dodging SS Broly's attacks.
When Goku and Vegeta fight SS Broly they are grappled and tagged multiple times by Broly, and need to use full powered flight (with aura) to dodge his barrage of attacks, clearly exerting considerable energy to outpace them.
Compare to Base Gogeta who dodged dozens of Broly's lasers at a much closer range without using his full powered flight (no aura). We even see Gogeta outpace Broly, the explosions and laughing out of amusement, clearly not concentrating particularly hard.
So with the basis of the above, Base Gogeta is superior to SSB Goku/Vegeta, at worst comparable to them.
Logically speaking, I'd say Broly wins. We know Super Saiyan 2 and 3 are things, and Broly probably could trigger at least Super Saiyan 2 against LB Jiren, but that veers into NLF.
In terms of FPSS Broly? I don't think we can really know for sure. SS Broly should already be much stronger than GoD Toppo, but we know he is still far weaker than Beerus until FPSS (taking Goku's word for it).
If we scale things we can see:
Base Jiren > UIS3 Goku > UIS2 Goku > Post-UIS2 Goku > UIS1 Goku > Pre-UIS KKX20 Goku
With that in mind, Goku grew at least dozens of times stronger after using -Sign- twice, so we can assume he probably grew much stronger from -Sign- 3 and Ultra Instinct but we can't conclusively state how much stronger. Regardless, UIS is accepted as at least a 40x boost on the wiki.
Considering Goku's Blue form is probably much stronger than it was Post-UIS2, I think we can claim Broly (being 50x Post-ToP Goku Blue) is reasonably around UIS3-level or higher. So SS Broly is reasonably either notably weaker than Base Jiren or is about comparable.
We can't say how strong FPSS is, persay, due to Bllues constantly holding back and Gogeta not even trying against Broly until the very end of their fight. Even so, it's worth noting that Gogeta skipped to Blue instead of dragging the fight out with SS2, SS3 and SSG. So I think FPSS Broly is at least somewhere between SS3 and SSG, possibly around SSG+.
SSB = 50x SSG
SSG = Vastly superior to SS3
SS3 = Superior to SS2
SS2 = at least 4x SS (50% SS2 Gohan could hold off Super Perfect Cell, when Perfect Cell could stomp SS Gohan)
SS = 50x
With the above in mind, it's reasonable to claim FPSS Broly is thousands of times stronger than SS Broly, who shouldn't be far from Base Jiren in power. Issue is, we don't know how much stronger LB Jiren is, relative to Base Jiren.
There is a magazine scan that claims UI Goku is possibly stronger than Beerus though, but I don't take magazines too seriously. If we did take it seriously though, we could come to the chain:
Gogeta Blue >> LB Jiren ~ UI Goku ~ FPSS Broly >/= Beerus >> Base Jiren ? SS Broly ? UIS3 Goku >> GoD Toppo
I say there is no way that those 2 won’t eventually meet when they restart the anime. So we will see then. Also Goku doesn’t know the extent to which beerus can use ultra instinct so that statement can only be used for AP. But whatever I’m over it was cool taking with you, I’ll see you around. I started a thread on xeno goku if you want to check it out.