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  • Can you tell me why you think battle of gods tiers are low 2-C?

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    • Iisdude1 wrote:

      because there are stil sometimes distinctions between physical matter and the entire universe. 

      It's extremely rare for a fiction to distinguish between destroying a universe's spacetime or a universe's matter. If a feat is universal, it's universal. Bringing in 'space' and 'time' destruction has way too much crossover with Space/Time hax.

      The wiki in-itself contradicts this, anyways. Jiren is stated to 'transcend' time and this is considered an outlier, why? He's Low 2-C. He, by definition, is capable of transcending and destroying spacetime. Every single Low 2-C should have resistance to Space/Time hax and non-physical interaction, but for whatever reason they don't.

      But based on how dbs treats the destruction of a universe and a held back beerus, I think a possibly low 2-C might work

      IIRC the subtitles are a mistranslation. They don't even mention it as just the 'universe' or turning it into a vacuum, just that existence was being erased. I'd have to look around, but I definitely recall this being brought up before.

      and I doubt the staff would be eager for another dB upgrade thread.

      Full honesty, I've developed the perspective that the Wiki staff strongly opposes Dragon Ball in general. You can't get any upgrades or revisions, for stats, through the door without intense debate.

      Also, what does half 2-C mean exactly?

      Basically, the Wiki treats the gaps between Low 2-C and 2-C as unquantifiable, but still possible to reach 2-C from Low 2-C via raw powerscaling, as long as backscaling from 2-C feats exist.

      Beerus and Champa were stated to be capable of destroying Universe 6 and 7 if they began to fight, so it was determined they would have destroyed both universes as a result of them fighting.

      That is, Champa is a Low 2-C that is half the power of a baseline 2-C. Beerus is stronger than Champa but the degree is unknown.

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    • Really? In all the sub versions I watched it was called an empty void.

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  • What do you think pulling someone's arm off is? Lifting Strength or AP? Or would that work if you tried that on someone with much more lifting strength than you who can just pull back harder?

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    • LSirLancelotDuLacl wrote:

      Is it true power levels are actually being used as an accurate gauge of AP difference? Like, someone with 25k would be treated as 2.5 times stronger in ap than someone with 10k power level?

      Power Levels are considered non-linear. The only thing indicating otherwise is the Kaio-Ken, but even that was only indicated on Namek when Kaio-Ken Goku's power was 180,000.

      Super Saiyan is considered 'at least 40x' because 50% Frieza matched Kaio-Ken X20, and 100% Frieza is logically 2x that, and was comparable to SS Goku.

      I thought they were completely thrown by the way side except for the accepted multipliers from transformations.

      Power Levels have never been used with transformations, the only canonical transformation power levels are Frieza's 2nd Form and Goku's Kaio-Ken VS Ginyu, and Frieza's transformations are limiters.

      It's generally accepted that:

      • Kaio-Ken is equal in multiplier to its level (i.e X2 is 2x, X4 is 4x, so on)
      • Great Ape is ten-fold, due to Vegeta saying as such
      • Wrath is ten-fold, due to matching Great Ape
      • Super Saiyan is at least 40x via Frieza scaling
      • Super Saiyan 2 is >2x, due to 50% SS2 Gohan matching Super Perfect Cell, when Perfect Cell stomped SS Gohan
      • Super Saiyan 3 is at least 2x SS2, due to the massive powergap presented by it.
      • SSB is at least 40x SSG, due to being Super Saiyan x Super Saiyan God
      • UIS is at least 40x SSB due to its massive gap with X20 Blue

      Everything else is completely unknown.

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    • Then I am really unsure where Dragonmer is coming off claiming some of these things.

      I do know about what is accepted, so what he was saying threw me off entirely.

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  • Can you check this thread out? https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Thread:4100480

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  • You seem to know a lot of the specifics on the scaling of DBS

    So I'm asking:

    1. Specifically how far is SSJ2 Kefla into Low 2C?

    2. Specifically how far is Post UIO2 normal SSGSS Goku (no kaioken) into Low 2C?

    3. Which of these 2 is stronger?

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    • So basically everyone I mentioned above should be Low 2C in some way or another

      interesting

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    • Outside of just dismissing them as outliers, yes.

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    • In full honesty, I've always considered Infinite and Unquantifiable speed to be stupid but in terms of Wiki standards I would say:

      While I have seen legitimate arguments against the World of Void counting as a timeless void, this literally concerns Gods of Time having statements concerning things 'outside of time'. This seems like it should fall under Irrelevant speed, or at least Infinite speed.

      Of course, by comparing to characters moving inside an erased space-time (Zeno erasing the future timeline) and the World of Void, I can see how there would be opposition to scaling characters based on moving in a 'timeless' location in DBH.

      Overall, it's worth debating and I think there is validity to claiming DBH is Irrelevant or Infinite speed based on these scans.

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    • Yeah, I also agree the wikis standards of infinite and irrelevant speed is a bit off.

      Thanks for your input

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  • I love you

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  • Can you explain me why Base Gogeta is superior to both SSB Goku and Vegeta?

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    • Kicking at the ground, Gogeta blasts away. In pursuit, Broly disappears like a hurricane. Broly begins firing continuous energy blasts with tremendous force. As he dodges them without problem, Gogeta makes his way to an open field, after which he turns around, grips his fists around his hips and assumes a stance.

      "Let's do this! Haaaa..."

      We see this scene in the film, but the novel explicitly states Base Gogeta has no problem dodging SS Broly's attacks.

      When Goku and Vegeta fight SS Broly they are grappled and tagged multiple times by Broly, and need to use full powered flight (with aura) to dodge his barrage of attacks, clearly exerting considerable energy to outpace them.

      Compare to Base Gogeta who dodged dozens of Broly's lasers at a much closer range without using his full powered flight (no aura). We even see Gogeta outpace Broly, the explosions and laughing out of amusement, clearly not concentrating particularly hard.

      So with the basis of the above, Base Gogeta is superior to SSB Goku/Vegeta, at worst comparable to them.

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  • I had a response cooking up! I like to take my time...... double re read everything...... But no, I had a 10 hour shift today at work and the rug go swept from the thread while I was there.

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    Truth be told I am not decided on who would win between FPSS Broly or LB Jiren. 

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    • RIP.

      Logically speaking, I'd say Broly wins. We know Super Saiyan 2 and 3 are things, and Broly probably could trigger at least Super Saiyan 2 against LB Jiren, but that veers into NLF.

      In terms of FPSS Broly? I don't think we can really know for sure. SS Broly should already be much stronger than GoD Toppo, but we know he is still far weaker than Beerus until FPSS (taking Goku's word for it).

      If we scale things we can see:

      Base Jiren > UIS3 Goku > UIS2 Goku > Post-UIS2 Goku > UIS1 Goku > Pre-UIS KKX20 Goku 

      With that in mind, Goku grew at least dozens of times stronger after using -Sign- twice, so we can assume he probably grew much stronger from -Sign- 3 and Ultra Instinct but we can't conclusively state how much stronger. Regardless, UIS is accepted as at least a 40x boost on the wiki.

      Considering Goku's Blue form is probably much stronger than it was Post-UIS2, I think we can claim Broly (being 50x Post-ToP Goku Blue) is reasonably around UIS3-level or higher. So SS Broly is reasonably either notably weaker than Base Jiren or is about comparable.

      We can't say how strong FPSS is, persay, due to Bllues constantly holding back and Gogeta not even trying against Broly until the very end of their fight. Even so, it's worth noting that Gogeta skipped to Blue instead of dragging the fight out with SS2, SS3 and SSG. So I think FPSS Broly is at least somewhere between SS3 and SSG, possibly around SSG+.

      SSB = 50x SSG

      SSG = Vastly superior to SS3

      SS3 = Superior to SS2

      SS2 = at least 4x SS (50% SS2 Gohan could hold off Super Perfect Cell, when Perfect Cell could stomp SS Gohan)

      SS = 50x

      With the above in mind, it's reasonable to claim FPSS Broly is thousands of times stronger than SS Broly, who shouldn't be far from Base Jiren in power. Issue is, we don't know how much stronger LB Jiren is, relative to Base Jiren.

      There is a magazine scan that claims UI Goku is possibly stronger than Beerus though, but I don't take magazines too seriously. If we did take it seriously though, we could come to the chain:

      Gogeta Blue >> LB Jiren ~ UI Goku ~ FPSS Broly >/= Beerus >> Base Jiren ? SS Broly ? UIS3 Goku >> GoD Toppo

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    • Overall, if we used FPSS Broly in the film, I'd say LB Jiren most likely takes the fight. But if Broly can trigger SS2, or even SS3, I think LB Jiren would be dust.

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    • I say there is no way that those 2 won’t eventually meet when they restart the anime. So we will see then. Also Goku doesn’t know the extent to which beerus can use ultra instinct so that statement can only be used for AP. But whatever I’m over it was cool taking with you, I’ll see you around. I started a thread on xeno goku if you want to check it out.

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    • Alright, have a good time.

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