Btw Grath 110% deserves your hate, personally, fuck that guy
Huh... So, I guess it won’t help to ask you or anyone to stand up for... Hm. Imma post this here because DarkGrath threatened to report me, and I want to speed up the process and give him a good ole headache.
Ok, so, DarkGrath disingenuously tried to frame me as attacking the gender identity of Matt, on top of claiming that I am disregarding the opinions of others “no matter what points they have to make” (which sounds like he just doesn’t like how I won’t budge on my stance rather than me breaking any rules), on top of trying to frame NE as a bigot for disagreeing with how they handled my thread. It’s somehow unreasonable to come to the conclusion that people who do easily disregard someone’s statement about a problematic aspect of the wiki might have either unconscious bias or be ignorant of what the actual problem can entail and it’s importance, I guess.
Somehow, me, despite saying that, “And I would appreciate you not trying to demean the issue when YOU don’t think it’s a big deal. If you were trans or something, i’d Get that, not everyone feels the same or has the same vulnerability to these things in the LGBT community, but if you’re a cisperson, it’s... A yikes to say “it’s not a big deal” when it doesn’t affect you in the first place.” is the same as “trying to invalidate their opinion on the basis of their gender identity.”
For one I stress, saying “I’D GET THAT” which is me accepting his feelings as they were valid so long as they were informed by being in a comparable state to judge things from. One can’t be trusted 100% to weigh in impartially on the validity of someone’s issues if they never experienced their problems. I should have to right an essay to explain that— that a white person cannot be seen as equally valid of a source on the racism that targets black people if they have never experienced things from that perspective and in accordance with how society treats that group.
In this case, its being trans, because if you’re not Trans, maybe you don’t have enough experience in a certain context to judge what is and isn’t a problem. Just like a white person couldn’t fairly judge EASILY (it is obviously possible but not very doable on your own) what is a valid problem to a black person without understanding things from a black person’s perspective.
Dark goes on to frame me as trying to disagree with anyone no matter what, which sounds less like I’m being a bad person or breaking rules and more like he’s frustrated that I don’t agree with his judgment from his perspective.
“Nobody here seems to be badly intentioned, so let’s not start any aggressive discussion here.”
And I literally say multiple times, “It’s almost certain no one intended to be implicitly dehumanizing or transphobic,” and “Again, I literally said that I didn’t think the person was intentionally bigoted when they wrote it.” And use “unintentionally” several times. Yet, somehow, I was still being aggressive throughout the first thread. I can of course admit that I was being aggressive on his wall. But that’s out of justified frustration.
For one, he closed it under the idea that none of what I said was reasonable, and called me irrational, despite the fact that not only does he make his ignorance clear about the topic, which calls his judgement into question;
“I’m honestly not sure how being referred to as a “trans woman” instead of just a “woman” would be a dehumanising expression though, and I’m 99.9% that was not even remotely anyone’s intention when they made that profile.”
When I explained that it was because; “That type of framing is used to deligitimize the identities of real people— calling her a transgender female is basically trying to imply that she’s not a real woman, or at least it is viewable that way.” To break it down again, it’s just like how calling girls “girl gamers” instead of just “gamers” singles those women out into being seen as different and implicitly invalid in comparison to just “gamers” who are boys or men called that normally. “Gamers” and “Girl Gamers” are different because one means boy (a “real gamer”) and the other means a girl gamer, who, despite being no different aside from their gender and even their sex, are somehow given a different name. Do you all get that? Because the same thing applies to “transwoman” and “woman”. You can say calling someone a transwoman is a statement of fact, and calling someone a transgendered female a statement of fact, but you missing the point and disregarding the problem. Yeah. They’re a transwoman. But “transgender” isn’t a gender. Woman is. Calling someone that instead of “woman” like every other person who identifies as such but just so happened to be born the way you appreciate is singling them out and detaching them from their identity. That is dehumanizing. And while Poison isn’t a person, people reading her profile are. And seeing that is a major turn off. Just like seeing James Bond seduce a lesbian with his social influencing demonstrates bigotry against homosexuals— because it implies we’re all straight deep down, and that homosexuality is a choice, and that a swave man can put any gay woman back on the path to being with men. And that’s gross.
So, suffice to say, he didn’t understand, and continued to portray me as crazy; “You're saying that Poison's profile stating that she is a "trans female" instead of just "female" is somehow belittling and degrading,”
Somehow. If you don’t understand, oh nice and agreeable DarkGrath, then, maybe, don’t come at this as if I was being horrid from the jump. I tried really hard not to be rude too, given these arguments are made all over the Internet by people who claim to not have ill-will but have bad minds and thoughts about these things that influence their actions, or worse, people who are just careless can come off as similar to those rude and bigoted people. This is what I was referring to when I, according to him tried to say “that somehow we're all in cahoots to make sure that this obvious, clear case of transphobia by saying the word "trans" is accepted. “
Which is, again, inaccurate. I was instead voicing my observation; “And I never said anyone who made the profile was being transphobic on purpose. I said that it came off like that in the terms they used. But instead this community defended and insisted not on trying to change anything to keep the work minimum.”
And then, because I was so angry, I said what I did to explain that it’s really bad looking and fucked up seeming for staff members to be so dismissive.
Matt: I'm sorry you took offense to the profile but you're honestly just making a river out of a puddle. Kepekley23: What the fuck is this. Promestein: It's such a minor thing who cares DarkGrath: I’m inclined to agree with Matt.
Nice job! “Sorry you feel like this is kinda fucked up, but you’re crazy”
Yeah. Great job. Really inspires me to trust you with issues I could have here instead of clapping back on my own to defend my damn self like I always have to in real life. How exactly am I supposed to tell the difference between you and people who are so careless that you don’t give enough of a fuck about transphobic microaggressions to bother? And how are those people not problematic? How is it inaccurate to state that they don’t care when a PURPLE admin says “who cares”? And how are statements like; “But it’s alright! I mean, most people on the planet and in this community are straight cis guys, and what happens to gay people and the LGBT community because of how you do things is that community’s problem, yeah? Goddamn it” invalid? When the argument being made is that I’m “making a river out of a puddle.” When everyone uses these terms wrong and Prom cares so little at this point that it’s “whatever” to her.
Never mind the blatant dishonest framing of me by Matt; “I'm not sure why do you find it such a problem to even acknowledge that a character is transgender or otherwise in that minuscule section of the profile.”
Despite me saying, several times and here, again, that it’s fucked up to single someone out like that, and using the term transgendered needlessly and incorrectly like that is distancing the characters from their gender. Clearly the staff cares sooo much about this topic that they don’t even pay any mind to the actual OP...
And actually think being Bisexual, I.E. not transgender, is enough to justify a position on whether or not a trans person’s issue with something is valid. Of course if he has actual logic or experience with other trans people to build off of, he’d be able to weigh in somewhat, but like I said earlier. It’s harder to judge fairly and reasonably, and therefore harder to have your word be trusted, if you’re speaking out of zero experience. It’s not me invaliding him entirely based on his gender identity. It’s like me trying to talk about High 1As and dimensional physics. What good would my opinion be if I’m likely talking out of my ass without any learning or study to back me up? And how can Matt/me be trusted to be able to give valuable insight when we make arguments that our irrelevant statuses as things that are not going to give us experience in the relevant areas.
And to be clear, I was fine with being disagreed with.
When AogiriKira said; “Well Ame, i'm not as affected by it, but thats just me. I've learned to live with some of the more "Egh" stuff on the wiki (Seriously I hate Bond's Social Influencing description) but at the end of the day the wiki's not attempting to offend us. Sometimes things just are as they are...”
I said, “I know Aogi, and you’re entitled to your opinion. You’re valid, and strong for not being bothered and being secure enough in your identity to not be fazed.”
That doesn’t sound like someone who; “outright refuses to listen to the opinions of anyone who disagrees with you no matter the point they have to make,” does it Dark?
And when I said; “You might think it’s small potatoes but I disagree. Even if you were black, saying anti-black shit doesn’t make it ok at all, so while you’re clearly not self hating, saying “oh it doesn’t matter” to you doesn’t exactly make it not an issue when other transpeople like me disagree. People in the LGBT community believe all kinds of fucked up shit, like how we shouldn’t be able to marry. Lots of minority communities have people who hate themselves, and you likely don’t, but that doesn’t mean I know that for sure, and that doesn’t mean your judgement is perfect.” That is in no way contradictory to that. I’m just saying her waving her transgender card at me and telling me I’m wrong does nothing. Especially when I said to Matt FIRST; “If you were trans or something, I’D GET THAT, not everyone feels the same or has the same vulnerability to these things in the LGBT community, but if you’re a cisperson, it’s... A yikes to say “it’s not a big deal” when it doesn’t affect you in the first place.”
Again. I was saying that Matt’s limited perspective doesn’t help make his case strong. If they’re not trans, maybe they have very little experience to draw accurate conclusions from. Lack of experience isn’t the same as =/= invalid because you’re a cisgendered person: but that’s what Dark framed it as. Conversely, saying that you’re trans doesn’t make your argument automatically correct. I acknowledged such with Aogiri.
Aogiri understands how being referred to as trans explicitly can be dehumanizing; “ Ame theres really nothing wrong with being trans. Its just a technical term and it doesn't invalidate our identities even if it CAN FEEL THAT WAY AT TIMES.”
Here, she disagrees with my direct action of trying to change things, because she’s resigned herself to y’all’s bullshit, unlike me who never will. She asks me to ignore the bullshit that exists in writing and in places because it’ll all go away eventually. Nah. I wanna kill it myself. It shouldn’t be here in the first place, and laziness is no excuse for a mistake and a harmful inaccuracy that should be corrected EVENTUALLY— and I am willing to accept GRADUALLY— nevermind immediately. After people like Prom allegedly fought for it until she got tired of it. Which says a bit about this place.
But the point is, Aogiri even comprehends the point that I’m making. So why couldn’t the rest of you? A kneejerk reaction to some social issue? One that arises from the fear of being ridiculed or ‘canceled’, resulting in a hatred of cancel culture and therefore a cynical and reluctant worldview that stops people caring about things like this because it doesn’t concern them? Very accepting. And, by the way, it’s not hard to be “accepting”, Zark, especially when homophobia and transphobia now have consequences.
Zark disagrees with me and thinks I’ve got some messiah complex, when, I don’t, but maybe that’s because she didn’t like me messing with Dark over his disrespectful disregard of everything I said and constant misinterpretation of me. Remember, he constantly attempted to accuse me of being aggressive when I wasn’t, and was actually apologetic, and receptive. Someone corrected my misconceptions of Japan in the same thread, and I readily bowed my head in apology, acknowledging I was wrong then as I feared when I made the post. If I was some kind of messiah narcissist, I would never apologize for anything ever. And yet it came easy to me then.
I also gave a solution that didn’t necessarily require a rework, though I also made it clear that it wasn’t very good and fought against it on that front. At the very least, he could have bothered to read, instead of acting like I didn’t have any ideas on how to make shit easier. Dark says;
“There’s almost certainly a simpler solution that doesn’t require literally changing the format for character profiles across the wiki and selectively adjusting every single page.”
And in the OP, I wrote, “Basically, either change Poison (and all trans characters) to have their gender be exactly the same as every other characters— that is to say if they’re “female” make them female without the transpart, because in the Gender context, they’re real females too.” And “I suggest we either try our best to stay away from “male” and “female”, and change all of those things to “man” or “woman” or “boy” or “girl”. Something conducive to the term “gender”, which has the sociological and anthropological definition that refers to is social construct, rather than its “biological” (because even that is dubious in ways), counterpart.”
Which translates to “make ‘male’ into ‘boy’ or ‘man’ and female into ‘girl’ or ‘woman’.” You know. A solution that WASN’T reformatting. Like he complained.
Repeated disingenuous takes from his little post on his wall. He replies to me with how he doesn’t see disrespect, when Matt, who is casually disrespectful to everyone with his snark, notices this!
Ura: Again, the only reason why people are hesitant to debate Ame is because the fandom staff heems entire wikis for this, and the fact they are just too nice. It's useless making a 300 post thread about this.
Matthew Schroeder: Ura, stop.
Hmmmmmm. And let’s ignore the non arguments that also demonstrate no one read or comprehended the points, and therefore are not competent in weighing in on these conversations. As, “they’re trans, it’s a fact”, is as dumb as saying “they’re girls, it’s a fact” to justify the nuances of covert dehumanizing speech that lies in the difference between “martial arts girl” and “martial artist”. I don’t expect everyone to be aware, but when an entire community is filled with this. Yikes!
DarkGrath said; “I understand that these issues are sensitive topics to you, and that they are deeply important. But you're simply taking this leaps and bounds further than it ever was supposed to be.”
Hmm. How nice and accepting, and receptive. The idea that me making a thread where I tried to be patient with people I would ordinarily snap at because I can see through the plausible deniability of covert bigotry, and care not for the difference between intentional and unintentionally standing in the way of this shit is... Too far? Hm. How “white moderate” of him.
“People are not being disrespectful,”
“AogiriKira As for those who came here to clown or laugh at the thread, if you have nothing meaningful to say i'd advise you all to stop talking. When it gets this bad we're supposed to defuse the situation not make it worse.”
So, I mean, on top of Matt calling out someone, which is a feat for that asshole, Ao had to ask people to stop being assholes too! If they can both see disrespect, why can’t Dark?
“nor are they being bigoted.”
I said “potentially”. Which he cannot debunk at all, especially given his inability to understand these things. Otherwise he would not have said this.
“But absolutely nobody in that discussion was being transphobic, nobody behind these profiles was being transphobic, and the idea that they were is unsubstantiated.”
I never said they were doing so intentionally. I said that it was unintentional. Saying something bigoted or that sounds bigoted without understanding so isn’t negating the bigoted nature of those accidental statements. He seems to think that it doesn’t exist if it wasn’t intentional, which, if this guy is your most understanding, then FUCK.
“Please, try and think about this rationally.”
Ooh. Make me sound crazy for being against all forms of bullshit everywhere no matter how small. Lemme tell ya, no matter how tiny, shit still stinks.
I don’t like this part;
“In other words, you're trying to invalidate their opinion on the basis of their gender identity.”
But I made it clear, that’s false. It seems like his last post is blatant character assassination. But, you guys wanna pull death of the Author and say “we don’t know his intent”, because he could have wrote that without that idea in mind— which doesn’t have to be active or conscious. People can write fucked up shit to fuck over people without actually trying ya know. Hey! That’s, like, relevant to this!!!
“So you've made a completely outlandish,”— it’s not— “radical claim”— if trans rights is radical, call me an extremist— “with no backing,” —he didn’t read, could not understand, or refused to understand— “you outright refuse to listen to the opinions of anyone who disagrees with you no matter the point they have to make,” — again, sounds like you don’t want me to have my own mind, and it also sounds like you lack self awareness—“you've attempted to stop people from commenting on the issue on the basis of their gender identity,”— when? When is saying ‘please have an informed perspective’ gatekeeping a conversation? Isn’t that, like, a requirement?— “and you've gone out of your way to directly target and insult several people (including me).” — After most of them disrespected me, as staff members, in front of other staff members, WITH staff members, whilst I try to behave up until you close the thread with disrespectful ass ‘reasons’— “Do you actually have that little self awareness?”
No. I don’t. I think the problem here is you, Dark. No. Too many of the staff here. I think the problem is that none of you fuckers understand how to deescalate shit, how to handle actual discussion moderation positions impartially, and the list goes on. You lack understanding of the issues you’re so ready to speak on, and your members blatantly demonstrate problematic as fuck traits. I remember Dragonxyz or something standing with Vic, and guess what happened to Vic. I remember seeing Ant say some strange shit about Iranians and invasion. If you guys wanna avoid controversy, you definitely don’t have to do as I say. Remove yourselves from things more, like Ant does, because as problematic as I’m worried he is, I can’t actually call him out on anything.
“In your attempts to call everyone around you bigoted, you've demonstrated some of the most bigoted behaviour I have ever seen on this website.” Bullshit. I’ve literally seen some cryptofascist memes and anti Semitic jokes here. Me saying “cispeople have trouble commenting on transpeople issues by virtue of our issues being inherently different and often mutually exclusive, and thus you should take what they say with a grain of salt”.
If you don’t think I ever clarified that, maybe you read. Maybe you shouldn’t jump down people’s throats before they can actually clarify themselves to answer your questions. Etc.
TL: DR; Dark wanted me to stop, and I didn’t do shit. He and many other staff misbehaved and were very problematic. And you should fix this shit, Ant. Or should I call fandom?
So from what I'm understanding, you're saying that if the mechanics behind a robot's abilities are explained in a scientific manner, then the machine would not have Mystery, correct?
So how do you think this applies to character like Iron Man or Doctor Doom who use higher tier (not necessarily just AP, but the absurd stuff like matter manip and black holes) technology in combat (ignoring the times Doctor Doom has incorporated magic into his armor)?
If the mechanics behind a robots abilities as explained and preformed (important part) purely using scientific and non-mystical and non-supernatural principles, I would say they are likely not possessing Mystery.
Iron Man’s suit and abilities are definitely weapons and weapon based. That is, assuming he isn’t using Magical energies or Magitek or Mysticism fused into technology to preform those feats.
Doctor Doom is a mage. He’s a magic user, if I recall correctly. Most of his shit uses magic in it, even if it’s technology as well as magic.
Again, the key here is “uses and/or is accomplished using natural laws and non-mystical methods”. A magibabble or magitechnobabble or technobabble explanation of how a mage uses magic to CONTROL fundamental scientific forces and to ACHIEVE scientific concepts is just fine, and counts as mystery however, in my view. You could use a gun powered by magic energy to hurt a servant, so long as you’re attacking them with magic. It’s not mystery unless it uses Magic or Chi or something mystical. Unless you’re from the Nasuverse, then you have to check that in the context.
Mutants from X-Men would be considered to have Mystery, which is a better conversation to have, but they’re not from Nasuverse, so we can’t give them mystery. But again, if they were from the Nasuverse, they would have it or fall under the category. So it’s an argument that’s winnable.
Oh, like that. Okay. They'd have mystery cause their source was become of some gods tinkering with humans in the past which is what caused the mutant gene right? (I might be mixing that up with Inhumans)
Mutants, humans, and Inhumans all had some alteration by the Celestials I think?
It’s definitely arguable. In Fate, had they been native to the verse, mutants would already have mystery period. They’d be called Psychics tho. That backstory also helps support mystery to some extent, but for mutants who use modern weapons as a part of their powers, it cancels out imo.
Literally same, after watching the Movie which I thought was mildly interesting I decided to look into the Manga. Mainly because I saw Sechs design and I was very surprised what I was reading was what I recently watched.
A. Ok. I have the example of Dogman in my head. Had you read both pages, you’d know that Li’s moves are more esoteric than just a martial arts movement style. I recall us saying on more than one occasion that Garou isn’t likely to be able to copy an attack that uses energy and stuff. Given what I have read in the current manga, I have never seen him copy and superpowers. Most of his stuff on his profile don’t mention anything about energy manipulation, so I assumed or rather inferred that he’s got no feats of energy blast stuff or anything. Someone brought up how he can’t copy Psychic Powers, like Tatsumaki’s shit. So, after we explicitly stated what was already easily available information on the pages, I don’t know why the fuck you thought he could, but you did...? I guess?
B. I mean, I think the Okada part was mentioned before you tried to argue that copying a Kamehameha is “different”. Which implied that you still believed he could.
C. Nitpicking, but it’s not. It is close though. Probably better to talk about it as a “spell”, which is equally unadaptable for Garou, unless you can show me him copying a superpower or some shit. I’m open to it, but then there’s the claim you made about him being able to “sense” him as a counter to his super invisibility Sphere Boundary. You know, the one that goes beyond standard presence concealment, which I think, but I might be wrong, is just normal invisibility? Garou doesn’t have feats sensing the movements of martial artists and being able to copy their intricate techniques without perceiving them with his 5 senses, to my knowledge. I argue that he needs to see them with his eyes. You know, in order to... Copy what he saw...?
And, uh, ok. Doesn’t really make sense to try accuse me of getting heated and be all confrontational about nothing, but alright. Bye.
You were reported on the RVT for being unnecessarily hostile. I've had to remove a couple of your comments already. Saying people have 'little sheep brains' and calling people irrational is completely uncalled for, and it's not the first time you've been warned for this either.
If you feel you are getting heated over a thread, take some time out before responding to it. Hopefully this doesn't become a recurring issue.
Calling people irrational is suddenly rude? It’s factually correct though. That also wasn’t intended to be an insult. The stupid one was, and the sheep brains wasn’t directed at him but at anyone who would listen to his argument and be swayed hypothetically.
You... Do realize circular reasoning is irrational, right? Me calling him that is not an insult, it’s a statement of fact.
I highly doubt Paulo intentionally was using circular arguments (if he was), and irrational is almost always used as an insult to call someone mad/crazy. At best, your choice of words could be better here.
The 'little sheep brains' line seemed to be directed to people who did agree with Paulo's stance, not a hypothetical person who might. And both those comments are quite clearly provocative when they don't need to be. Like I said, take some time to cool off in case you say something you don't mean again, because from what it looks like you're close to a ban.
This is more like a general instruction for you. Even if you are provoked in a heated thread by some remarks, you don't have to retort by using even worse insults. This has been a problem with you and you need to do something about it. Instead of contributing to push the discussion out of hand, just call a staff member when you feel it is getting volatile.
And if I snitched every time someone was disrespectful, you definitely wouldn’t come take care of them, so what am I supposed to do besides defend myself? Why is it my responsibility to take someone else’s disrespect “with grace”? When they don’t even get a warning for starting something. Where I live, and in my life, I have to fight back. Sorry if I have a limit to someone repeatedly calling me disrespectful things whilst a staff member is right in the chat.
I’ll tell you what I told Calaca. I hear your warning.
I was busy and didn't read all of the irrelevant comments of you guys fighting. But the latest comment at the time was yours which was literally worse than anything I saw on the thread.
If you linked the comment in the RVRT and if it was genuinely bad, any admin would have taken action. Hell, I would have told him to stop right away if I had noticed. I even did tell both of you to calm down and not escalate it right after you pointed it out in your next comment.
It's possible we're still miscommunicating so I'll try to make myself as clear as possible. I'm assuming the argument being made is: "So long as two types of energy are similar, verse equalization means that one type of energy can be used to physically block the other."
This is the point I'm trying to counter. If that isn't your argument then I've been wasting all of our time so feel free to correct me.
The point that I'm trying to make, is that without feats that isn't something that can just be assumed for aura in a single verse, let alone when equalizing two different ones. When aura is most commonly depicted as an intangible energy form that doesn't inherently provide a defense against other energy attacks, giving it the property of "shielding against other auras" is erroneous.
The rest of this below is the direct quote from the SBA page, as well as my argument regarding how this applies to Hunter X Hunter and Nen specifically.
"Verse equalization: Similar supernatural aspects of verses get equalized in a reasonable fashion. So a supernatural energy that almost everyone in a Verse has, which is necessary to fight the characters of said Verse, will be assumed to be the equivalent energy that the opponents use in their techniques so that a proper fight can happen.
Furthermore, attacks that require a special type of energy to be effective, like anti-magic requiring magic, will be assumed to work against the energies of different Verses, as long as they are somehow similar and the mechanics are somehow compatible with the known mechanics behind the energies from different Verses. For example, mind control resistance by being a capable mind user would also work against other Verses, but mind control resistance through a strong will would not necessarily work against mind control from other Verses. It is also important to note that characters won't lose or gain any abilities or resistances which they do or do not inherently possess. However, if an ability has a weakness, condition, caveat, or limitation, stated by at least a valid and uncontradicted statement, then it should be applicable after the equalization.
Equalization works highly on a case-by-case basis, so many relevant cases should be discussed in the versus thread itself."
Simply having access to Nen in HxH doesn't grant you the ability to use Ten. Ten is a specific technique with specific mechanics that has to be learned. Simply calling it a "layer of aura/energy" is also provably false as that very thing is contradicted several times in-verse. Ten captures and maintains your life energy within by allowing your aura to flow steadily throughout and around your body and explicitly provides a shield against other aura attacks through feats, explanations and statements. Creating a simple layer of aura around yourself is not the same.
Equalized energies don't gain or lose abilities or weaknesses as is quoted above directly from Standard Battle Assumptions. Ren will neither lose the ability to bypass a basic layer of aura, nor will a basic layer of aura gain the ability Ten has to block it.
The final paragraph lastly supports that interactions between energy should be taken case by case, even further contradicting the idea that there's some universal interaction among all of them that would follow along with the protective properties which are being suggested on that thread.
So long as the energies are similar, Verse Equalization can be applied. This, however, and you are correct, doesn’t objectively mean they can touch each other no matter what. How the energies interact depends on how the energies themselves work in Verse?
Let’s say in Verse A there’s two Energies. Chi and Mana. Chi cannot interact with Mana and Mana cannot interact with Chi. Say we have Negima, where those energies are basically the same. I say, Chi and Mana from Verse A cannot interact with Mana and Chi (respectively) from Negima, irrelevant to Mana and Chi being able to interact 100% in Negima. It’s about context. HxH doesn’t have anything like that. That’s what imma post about your first part for rn
If Chi and Mana in Negima are considered the same thing then they already follow a similar function and would both get equalized to the most similar compatible mechanic of another verse, and only that energy type unless they're somehow simultaneously compatible with another type in that verse. Being referred to as either chi or magic isn't relevant to being equalized to a particular type of energy. What matters are the mechanics and compatibility.
In verse A, "Magic" might refer to the life energy that naturally exists in all living things, where as verse B refers to the same (or extremely similar) energy type as "Chi". Verse C might consider "Magic" an energy source that naturally flows through the atmosphere and isn't inherently present in living beings, and verse D might consider it an abstract conceptual force that only specific gifted individuals are capable of tapping into.
A's "Magic": Equalizes with B's "Chi" and doesn't equalize with the Magic of C or D. The same goes for verse B. C might equalize with any energy type that naturally exist within the atmosphere, and D with any other abstract conceptual force with similar properties. Of course, there might be situations where an energy type like A/B also has similar properties to that of D, such as being an abstract conceptual force that also exists within all living things. This would be able to equalize to both, even if A and D don't equalize to each other. It's entirely an issue of case by case.
I had dinner and my phone was dying. Back. Now to reply to everything else.
Energy in general in fiction tends to be portrayed similarly. It’s my belief that we typically assume any energy substance that doesn’t explain or state otherwise functions according to a common set of tropes in terms of the basic parts. It interacting with itself is part of that basic kit. And instead of splitting hairs by delving into irrelevant dichotomies of intangible vs tangible— if the energies can interact with each other within their verse, unless explained otherwise, we assume that it’s intangibility and tangibility doesn’t factor into that. It’s an axiom that energy can interact with energy, and unless there’s a verse that works differently, with evidence to support that difference, then we treat it as such. Haki doesn’t have energy blasts for example, so we don’t assume OP characters can use Kamehameha with Haki.
Of course, if the aura is basically just for show, not even a defense that protects them from other energy or even other things in general as a “forcefield” like effect, then it wouldn’t protect you from En. It’s not to say that any verse without the feats gets the benefit of this, it’s more that AKM believes passive energy force shrouds to be really common in fiction as a whole. It still has to prove it can block energy. That was never stated otherwise. I think the miscommunication is that you think that is less prevalent than we do. No one said they need no feats, it’s just that the bar for surviving Nen Crush currently is very low to us.
And yeah, Nen use doesn’t give you the ability to use Ten. But if you have your nodes open, and you don’t use it... Well, you’re not even a character anymore in the verse lol. You die. Ten is a necessity to use Aura and anyone who isn’t dead from exhaustion and can use aura is using Ten to stop themselves from dying. All characters who can fight— no, who can use Nen and aren’t dead use it. Because they have to. Or, they can close their aura nodes, but... iirc even doing that enough to resemble a normal person’s is all but impossible— I think that I read that in the recent arc.
It’s... Not specific at all to have a basic ass regulated forcefield around you to block energy. At all. There’s unique bonuses besides that, but in the context of defending against Nen Crush, it’s not... a unique requirement. It’s not even a unique concept, having a light, defensive energy field aura around you. The process of using Ten is exactly what a defensive aura is. You regulate the flow of energy around your body, concentrate it enough to be able to defend from whichever level attacks at your choice. It’s... Controling and regulating your energy to suround you to block attacks on a consistent basis. It doesn’t need the longevity traits or stamina increase traits to be, for the purposes that we discussed, a defense against Nen Crush. Of course the specifics and special shit isn’t the same but the basics and relevant defenses to what we were discussing are.
Ren having a basic ability to pass through aura that is not dense enough/strong enough to withstand it is both common, and not even relevant to what we discussed, as the auras you’re thinking of that wouldn’t defend against it... Don’t block energy. This could be due to many things. Not being condensed or concentrated enough, making it too thin of a layer to protect you, it not being powerful enough, making it just easily pushed through, it not being plentiful enough, making it easy to go through due to the distance and therefore resistance against outside energies being weaker and unable to insulate the user. The methods don’t matter. We agreed that it’s about blocking energy using your own energy. It doesn’t have to be exactly the same functions or technique or sequence to do that.
And everything is case by case. Whether or not the auras in question can block energy attacks is case by case.
It seems we agree for the most part then. I do want to emphasize though that I agree with "energy shrouds being common in fiction" but the arguments and conclusion given seem to imply that "any common energy shroud in fiction has the ability to block energy". That was the miscommunication.
Learning Ten is only a necessity when you have your nodes forcibly opened in the way Gon and Killua did. It's usually manually learned through rigorous training like with Zushi, and isn't a necessity to use other Nen techniques except ones that are derivative.
A forcefield is specific or rather has to be specifically shown. A simple shroud is not. But again, we agree on that particular aspect being needed already.
Passing through aura isn't common. It's the standard imo. Blocking aura is what needs to be shown as I'm pretty sure we already agreed.
But yeah, other than those points, I think we agreed upon everything else that's relevant.
I came here to warn Amexim and saw this. Yes well for me, a shroud that's just there as a color around the character and does nothing, not even interacts with the same energy the verse has, is not a real aura. If that was a factor in miscommunication, I apologize.
I'd also like to thank Edwellken for how sensible and calm you were throughout the thread when people from both sides were behaving aggressively.